RE: "...but the Holy Ghost testified to me that the chruch is true"

I am sure that this topic has been beaten to death here but I can't seem to find a consolidated view of concise responses to this very typical TBM line when faced with contrary facts/evidence regarding church truth claims.

Two that I have seen are: 1) Over a billion Muslims claim to know the truth through the Spirit...Who is right?

2) Paul H. Dunn WWII war stories etc told in Conference gave all kinds of members got HG warm and fuzzies when hearing Dunn's tales but alas he made most of it up or wasn't telling the whole truth so how is it that the HG got that wrong?

We need ammo as we will soon be facing the extended TBM fam who will invariably use this line on us ad nauseum. What are your responses to this ever so common line from TBMs?

My favorite response is just a plain "How great for you," followed by a clear topic change. For those who keep persisting, a flat out (respectful but firm) "I can respect your beliefs but I can't share them."

Or, you could try the Willy Wonka approach of "You really need to stop mumbling when you talk; I can't understand a word you say," or "I'm pretty deaf in my left ear; you'll have to speak louder next time." :D

Yes. Heard it many times. It's a confirmation tactic of several Christian religious views.
God Myths are confirmed by the believer. Works like that every time.

"Prove it and I'm sold."

How about this.

Why isn't the Holy Ghost consistent in it's "testifying"? I had two occasions in church where a musical performance had me in tears, feeling the Spirit, and afterward some of my TBM friends bitched about them not being spiritual enough.

Why is it so easy for someone to outright lie in, say, a temple recommend interview, and the stake president will "feel the spirit" and approve them?

Why can non-church approved media inspire the same feelings in a person?

As Turkey Vulture said, how can the Spirit testify that so many other religions are true as well?

How can The Holy Spirit be anything more than a personal, subjective feeling when it's so easy to trick it?

I once thought that the hG testified the same thing to me. It wasn't until I got a "real" confirmation that the church isn't what it claims, that I realized it wasn't the HG at all.

I just needed it to be true so I wouldn't lose all of my friends and family. My mind was trying to protect me from abuse and abandonment. Now that i've had some time and had a real confirmation, I have realized I need to be true to what I KNOW to be true.

What I know to be true:
JS was a con man and a pervert.
The church has radically white washed history to change the meaning of just about everything JS believed and taught.
According to the church D&C 132 is still in force.
Bom wasn't translated at all.
BoA isn't what JS claimed.


on and on and on. The list is a very long one.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2012 04:50PM by Mia.

As someone else long ago posted:

"That tells me something about you. It doesn't tell me anything about your church." or words to that effect.

"Holy Ghost testified me I have the biggest penis that can stay hard longest time"

Thanks...this helps a lot

I testify that the people on this site and their sarcastic comments are funnier than %*&$! :). Amen.

When I was on my mission, the spirit once testified to my companion to tell a member that his cancer would be healed. The missionary felt the spirit so strongly that he convinced himself that he was drained and was unable to speak. He was a district leader, and it was just before we went home to call all the missionaries on the phone to see how they were doing. He made me do this. The zone leaders got angry that he was not reporting to them, when he suddenly regained the power of speech, and explained to them what had happened, as they were not buying the faith promoting story. I was so convinced that I had felt the spirit so strongly, that I bought into this fantasy without question. As for the sick member with the cancer, he did not get better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2012 04:57PM by forbiddencokedrinker.

My response: "Well, Deanna Laney claimed that God told her to kill her two boys. I didn't believe her either."

Turkey Vulture,
I have not had to broach this subject yet but since it is all bogus anyway, why not approach it with a sense of humor? In my book, that is the quickest and easiest way to nip it in the bud. Why give someone the "ammo" right back to make it into an argument, i.e., apologetics. That, to me, is ad nauseum. Yes?

I hear you and I will use some humor with some fam members but others will want to have a serious conversation about this and I don't want to come off flippant or cavalier with them....I want them to understand that we have done our best to think things through and that we are serious about making this change...that we have looked at their way of thinking and after introspection with simple questions I can pose back to them, they can see we are serious about this path.

TV,

I realized that I am in no way authorized or qualified enough to give anyone advice on this site. BUT (putting myself in your shoes), I would write it down and go from script. Relying on my memory or knowledge when facing family members when emotions come into play could be tricky and you want to stick with the facts of what you know or learned. Speak from your heart.

How 'bout:

I felt a burning, warm sensation when I was reading (insert favorite book here, I use the "Lord of the Rings" triogy since it has a much bigger "world" than the BOM ever did)... Was that the Holy Ghost confirming that it was true? ... Have you ever read a book or watched a movie and felt the "spirit"?

Why is it that when you "feel the spirit" when you read the BOM, it means that it's "true" but when you "feel the spirit" when reading another work of fiction, it just means that it's a good book?

Finally Free! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why is it that when you "feel the spirit" when you
> read the BOM, it means that it's "true" but when
> you "feel the spirit" when reading another work of
> fiction, it just means that it's a good book?

The HG can only testify that it's true because it really isn't a very good book.

They even wore dark suits and white shirts, God's Own Uniform.

So, was the Holy Ghost illegally out of his mission area? Did the MP bust him down to Junior Ghost?

The Holy Ghost is a total flake. God the Father is a sociopath.

Jesus is mostly a name we drop when we are pestering Heavenly Father™ for the car keys.

"That's funny, Casper the Holy Ghost just testified to all my Catholic friends that THEIR church was true, and to all my Muslim friends that THEIR church was true, and to all my Hindu friends that THEIR church was true, and to all my Buddhist friends that THEIR church was true, and ..."

My response: "How do you know the holy ghost is a reliable source of truth?" I guarantee they will always give an answer that allows you to point out their circular reasoning - ie. it can always be boiled down to "the holy ghost says that the holy ghost is a reliable source of truth."

If the mormon is smart (and for them to be smart enough to do this is kind of an oxymoron) he/she will ask the counter-question "how do you know that logic and reason are reliable sources of truth?" To this my answer is "if they're not, then God did us a real injustice by giving them to us."

At that point they should realize the implications of pushing the argument further and stop with that line of reasoning (also since they are essentially possibly undermining their own logic and reason that would be required to do so). At this point, the seasoned mormon defender will launch into a tirade about how both faith and reason are necessary for obtaining truth. This is when you have them pinned to the wall. Simply ask them what they would do if their faith clearly and definitively contradicted their logic and reason. Which would they follow? I guarantee that not a single mormon who has made it this far in the discussion will say "faith." A few mormons will say "reason" and I have full respect for them. The vast majority, however, will refuse to answer the question and most likely bear their testimony or some such.

TBM says "... but the Holy Ghost testified to me that the church is true."


Southern ExMo says "Yeah, psychotics often hear voices. But you're in luck -- there are a whole host of anti-psychotic meds that can help you with those voices nowadays, and almost all of them are covered on your insurance plan."

Most religious believers won't follow you down this path, but the obvious response is:

How do you know it was the Holy Ghost? How do you test for that?

Then tell them the story of Joseph Smith and selling the BoM Canadian copyright. When the prophecy fails, JS responds that there are three sources of revelation. God, man and the devil. JS couldn't tell the difference. How do you?

In other words, feelings don't equal fact about factual claims. The can equal fact about feelings (love, like, dislike pleasant and so on), but not on revelation, book's truthfulness and so on.

To restate Occam's Razor as Diax's Rake (in Neal Stephenson's Anathem):

Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true

http://anathem.wikia.com/wiki/Diax%27s_Rake

"I do not doubt that you felt something. What I challenge is your interpretation of the source, because similar claims from people of all religions are a dime a dozen."

"And what makes you think it's the Holy Ghost? Where'd you get that idea?"

"What do you mean?"

"I mean, who told you that feeling you get is something called the Holy Ghost? Did you come up with that theory on your own?"

"Of course not. I learned it at church and by reading the scriptures."

"And what makes you think the things you learn at church are true? What makes you think the scriptures are true?"

"The Holy Ghost testifies the truth of it to me."

"And what makes you think that's the Holy Ghost? Where'd you get that idea?"

"Huh?"

"You say the church is true because at church they taught you that the Holy Ghost tells you it's true. But how do you know they're telling the truth about the truth the Holy Ghost tells you?"

"... You're just trying to confuse me."

Pull out Reagan, especially if he's republican: trust the Holy Ghost but verify.

When I was a young TBM the spirit told me that it was God's will that I go on a mission. So I put in my papers.

The spirit later told me that I would be called to preach to the Lamanites in the southwest USA. When I got my letter, it didn't say anything about New Mexico or Arizona..it said I was called to Japan.

So...I soon realized that the Holy Ghost is whacky.

There is some great stuff here...keep it coming! Thanks!

Rather than the comparisons to Muslims, hit closer to home.

All the members of the FLDS (and the other 100 mormon "offshoots) have the same testimony that their version of the church is true. (I say "offshoots" because the FLDS are the largest group that is closest to what Joe Smith taught. LDS are the "offshoot" that outgrew the original.)

The FLDS say the HG tells them that Warren Jeffs is the only current prophet.

Brian David Mitchell had the HG tell him to kidnap Elizabeth Smart and form his own version of mormonism.

You might ask them if they thought about taking medication (as BDM needs) since most people in the world think that people who get messages from the HG to be in the same category as BDM: delusional.

My favorite answer:

Really? Did the Holy Spirit say why he picked you and left uncounted millions struggling in darkness with no hope whatsoever?

Anagrammy

Or try this

"There are a billion Muslims in the world, in addition to a billion Catholics, and another one billion people who identify themselves as Christians other then Mormon or Catholic. In addition there are a few million Scientologist, and 800 million Hindus, all of whom claim to receive special feelings from some deity that help them know that their faith is true. How are all these people self deceived, but a few million Mormons are not?

Have you ever heard of any other religion that has an obsession with claiming that it is true ? That in itself should send up red flags.

Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing. They even call their religion "The Truth", since if you have a nickname for something then it must be accurate!

I'm going to write a book and title it "This Book Will Make Me Fifty Million Dollars". Then I'll be rich!

"Convictions are a greater enemy of truth than lies."
--Friedrich Nietzsche

"Certitude is not the test of certainty. We have been cocksure of many things that were not so."
--Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

"Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence."
--Robert Anton Wilson

"The basic fault lines today are not between people with different beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with a pretense of certitude."
--Peter L. Berger

"Certitude is the lazy person's way of avoiding the search for truth."
--Baura Kale

Very nice!

Your brain released a chemical that made you feel good.

Native Americans have been using peyote in religious ceremonies for centuries to get those same feelings.

There are also certain mushrooms that can make you feel that way.

The 'spirit' is nothing more than your brain on religion, it's not reality.

1 million facts that the church is a crock
Vs
a warm woolly feeling

a warm woolly feeling that can be induced by any number of means...and manipulated by anyone conversant with the appropriate psychology (even if they dont realise it's psychology)

Endorphins ("endogenous morphine") are endogenous opioid peptides that function as neurotransmitters.

They are produced by the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus in vertebrates during exercise, excitement, pain, consumption of spicy food, love and orgasm and they resemble the opiates in their abilities to produce analgesia and a feeling of well-being.

When the Stake President confirmed to me that there were never blood oaths in the temple, I felt the warmth of the Holy Ghost confirm that and my fears went away.

Everything that I have believed about the church has been disproved by the church. The Holy Ghost does not testify of the truth of mormonism.

Has this ever bothered anyone:

"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

Does the HG tell you the truth that it's true that these things are NOT true, or that that they ARE true.

I realize of course, that apologists say it's wonderful that this odd phraseology is an "authentic" hebrewism, but ya know what? The way it's phrased, the church could explain it any way they want, because it's so convoluted.