I have been thinking of a way to get my wife to understand via an analogy why it is important for us to open our minds to the facts regarding anti-mormon literature. She won't even get close to it because she believes its Satanic. Here is my first analogy attempt. Perhaps these types of analogies to help people open up already exist out there...? Please let me know. Please forgive me if this is somewhat lame, didn't have time to polish it, wanted to capture it before I lost the thought.

You have two companies competing with each other selling health products. You meet with company A first, by chance, and they convince you their product is superior to all other products. You will have a life without pain and sickness as long as you do X, Y, and Z for the rest of your life. The X,Y,Z stuff is monumentally difficult but you see that the benefits far outweigh the risks. Some time passes and company B comes into the picture. Company A already knew company B would try to pull away their customers so they have prepared their customers to avoid company B at all cost. They lay out some ground rules for their customers and tell them that if they move to company B or even start researching company B, they will lose the benefits of a perfectly healthy life. You avoid company B because you don’t want to lose this. Over time you start to find some anomalies in the documentation of the health products offered by company A and you occasionally get sick so you question their products. You complain to company A but they say you are using their product incorrectly and threaten to take away all of the benefits of a healthy life if you continue any further research. (At this point you may ask what would a normal rational intelligent person do?). So now you choose to research company B thinking that maybe company A is hiding something. You find out that company B has proof showing all along that company A had forged documents, skewed research, taken your money with no accountability or transparency, and lied to you about their perfect product. Do you continue taking products from company A? Do you let your family continue to take them?

I used something very similar to this on my husband and his response was something like- But company A has scientists that have greater insight than company B so they're more likely to know what to do.

Also company A has many jealous enemies who print lies, you shouldn't listen to those lies. That's the only reason company A doesn't want you researching other companies.

Because company A is such a great company it has many secrets that it has to keep hidden from its competitors that's why we don't know everything the leaders of the company know.

I think the kicker is when I asked my husband how it could be that there has not been on documented case where a Native American from either N or S America had DNA that related to Arabic blood, he replied - we just don't know all the answers but I believe it will be revealed at a later time.

I told him the only way it could be real was if it happened in an alternate universe. He seemed to like that.

When the student is ready ...

Stop with the alternate universe thing. You're going to give the apologists ammo!

God has blessed us with seer stones in the latter days
unlike Joe smiths seer stone,mine actually works
it pulls up information and creates simulated images that conveys information to me. there are numerous videos of Gordon Hinckley plan old LYING. I keep my seer stone lap top computer close by at all times so ppl can view these images of the past if they need to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YEMX0VooD4

We had this discussion once:

Imagine that you have baked a nice tray of homemade brownies for your HT or VT family that you know has been going through a rough time. Just as you take the brownies out of the oven the phone rings and you need to leave home for 15 minutes to run an errand for your spouse.

You leave your 3 children at home with your 14 year old son in charge of his two younger siblings. You give him explicit instructions that he is not to eat the brownies since they are for your HT/VT family. Rather to just leave them on the counter to cool.

When you return 30 minutes later you find that the brownies are not in the pan, and there are only crumbs left. You call your children into the room to see what they did with the brownies. As they file into the room you note that all three are swallowing something and they all have chocolate around their mouths and on their hands. You ask them what happened and they tell you that an angel appeared to them and ordered them to eat the brownies vicariously for the family in need.

Do you:
A. Believe every word that proceeds from their lips since they are good kids and would never lie.
B. Believe them because there are 3 of them and since a lot of people have told the same story it can't possibly be wrong.
C. Pray about it, to see if the story is correct?
D. Believe the evidence that they ate the brownies and then lied about it?

That should tell you how you perceive truth

Oh my gosh, freaking awesome analogy. Thank you for sharing this. I was LMAO because it is so true! I'll think about sharing this one.

Thank you so much everyone for your comments. They are insightful, enlightening, and will help me as I begin this dialog with my wife. Thanks!!!

You could also mention that truth should stand on its own and be able to withstand all scrutiny and lies that try to derail it.

If so-called anti-Mormon stuff is all lies, it should be fairly obvious and truth will prevail. In a non-threatening manner maybe just highlight a couple of examples such as BoA/multiple first vision accounts etc. Do it in a way that demonstrates that you genuinely wanted to resolve your concerns but that the church provided answers just don't stack up - let her see why.

Also make it clear what anti-Mormon stuff really is. My wife was initially sceptical because in her mind anything anti was just wild ramblings of apostates with no grounding. When she realised it was quotes from leaders/documented history etc she slowly began to realise there was more to it.

I also asked my wife one or two 'take a step back' questions - things that will hopefully get them to reflect and think outside of the Mormon mindset. I.e - do you ever wonder that if this church is true, why does God's churh only impact such a absolutely minuscule amount of the earth's current population (do the sums), let alone the 100bn or so people that have ever lived.

Or anything that demonstrates the corporate nature of the church - do you not think that Jesus would opt to spend $5bn on more worthy causes than a high end shopping mall and expensive condos?

Lets say you're an attorney. You have an important case on your hands. It could have an effect on lives for generations.

The judge tells you that you can only use information that the opposing side gives you. Anything else will cause the case to be thrown out.

Now, try and win your case. That's how much sense her demands and refusal to consider any other information makes.

I particularly like this approach.

Stuck:

Would she be willing to look at Mormonthink.com? They at least post both sides of an argument, but they almost always side with the critics so most consider it an anti site.

Is she completely ignorant of troubling issues? If so, you could refer her to the FAIR website so that she will at least become aware that troubling issues exist.

After she is aware that the issues exist, you could then try to introduce the other side of the argument and why you feel that the FAIR arguments are unconvincing to you.

You may want to wait a bit in any event given her current state of mind.

A few thoughts.

1) The analogy is good.

2) One thing that has been very helpful for me in the whole my stop believing and my wife still believing has been the Myers-Brigg/Jung personality models. It may be worth your time to do some research on this.

Here's what this is likely relevant to your analogy. Very often, maybe most often the person who figures out it isn't true is an intuitive thinker while the person who holds on is a sensing thinker. (More specifically my observation is that those who have the hardest time reconsidering the truth are of the "Guardian" quadrant of personality types.) Intuitive thinkers are always coming up with and using analogies. Sensing thinkers don't get really get analogies and don't like them. So taking a guess at yours and your wife's personality types I'd question how effective any analogy would be in communicating with your wife.

3) I said something similar to my wife, but much more simplified and direct. I basically said - "I'm looking at all of the information and you are only looking at half of the information. Until you look at all of the information I am basing my decision on better information than you are." Basically any time she has made any type of attempt to reconvert me or take the moral high ground that she has the truth and I won't accept it I simply offer to look at all of the information with her.

She's started down the path a couple times and quickly realized she doesn't like what she is seeing and has gone back to sticking her head in the sand. I've come to understand why she emotionally, mentally, socially, etc. is currently incapable of looking at it and can respect her for that - I have also come to understand why for her personality type it would be much harder to reconsider than for me. But at the same time it has completely removed her ability to try to have the moral high ground. This was a process that took months but we've come to for us what seems to be a very good solution - we both respect each others right to believe what we believe. I believe she honestly is to the point that she looks at it as different paths not as much of her being superior.

Also you don't really need "anti-mormon" information to prove the church false - or at least to show it is reasonable to have doubts. There are plenty of problems right in Book of Mormon/ D&C / Temple ceremony to show concerns.

For example, early on I was talking to my wife and spent a few minutes explaining why I didn't believe a God would tell Nephi to chop off Laban's head - it gave her significant pause - in fact her sincere response was along the lines of - to hear you explain it, it seems like anyone would be dumb to keep believing it (note that if it would have been a battle where she had her defenses up she would have never been willing to admit something like that.) Problems like the dates/ages of Jacob,Enos,Jarom,Omni, etc (e.g. Enos had to be 110 when he died based on the dates assuming that Jacob was 70 when Enos was born - I don't remember the exact numbers.) The Jaredite submarines aren't realistic. And so on. Also things like barley, horses, chariots, etc. that just don't exist aren't anti-Mormon.

Give it time and go slow. The harder you push the bigger walls you are going to build between her and you, and more importantly the bigger defensive walls you will build within her as she feels defensive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2012 03:53PM by bc.

Stuck, are you in the Portland area? There is an ex-mo event Sunday the 8th in Portland that I will be attending for the first time. Would love to connect with you there...are stories are extremely similar.

Two suggestions for Stuckinzion (other than trying to make it to the Portland gathering on July 8):

1. Missionaries ask investigators to read the Book of Mormon. What is their response if the investigator says, "I don't have to read it! I know it's not true!"? They say, of course, "How can you know that something is not true, unless you read it first?"
Just as it is unreasonable to judge the BoM without reading it, it is unreasonable to just the truth or falsity of material critical of the church unless you read it first. You don't have to believe it, but you do have to read it.

2. Mormons say that criticism of the church is actually from Satan. But how can you identify something that comes from Satan? Check what the scriptures say: http://packham.n4m.org/satan.htm for all the scriptures about how to tell.

love this, especially #1

When I left, my husband would not look an anything anti-mormon and was upset that he thought I did. The fact is, I really didn't. I've yet to read Fawn Brodie, Under the banner of Heaven, or Rough Stone Rolling, etc. Never read any of the books we are warned about.

It was the mormon prophet's words that freaked me out. Crazy conference talks. "Honey, did you know that a prophet said man would never land on the moon?" "Honey did you know that Brigham Young said it was okay to murder someone if they married outside of their race?" "Honey did you know that the church taught people lived on the moon and sun?"

The biggie, "Honey there is zero DNA evidence in Native Americans and DNA doesn't lie. If the Book of Mormon is true how is that possible?" My husband and I are both history buffs and we knew a lot of the crazy stuff, but hearing it again, sure made him think.

Point is, yes you can make up and analogy as to why she should hear both sides and as rational person she should get that, but she's been brainswashed her whole life and she may put her foot down and absolutely refuse to listen to anything that may be "anti"

So you can take any anti stuff out of the picture and use the church's own words with your wife. Does she know you are the one who ressurects her and you don't have to, and that she better be welcoming to sister wives? If she believes Brigham Young was a prophet she better accept that. You don't have to use anti-mormon stuff!!! Three words: Journal of Discourses.

I think I would take another angle, just so you don't piss her off more. Maybe a less evil company A, might be good. I've seen people use a car dealer analogy . . . where you need to go to neutral sources on a car, rather than just trusting what the dealer says.

I think you would benefit from reading "Combatting Cult Mind Control", by Steven Hassan

The problem is that Mormons are deathly afraid of leaving the church. It's an irrational fear, because the church is absolute BS.

http://freedomofmind.com/Media/bookCombatting.php He has another book I haven't read, but probably very good.

But the most important thing he says in that book is that if you take the direct approach to attacking someone's beliefs, their defenses are going to kick in, and they won't listen to anything. She has been pre-programmed (if you'll forgive the word) to reject ANYTHING critical or damaging to Mormonism. And that includes you. Tread lightly.

Other important topics involve empowering a person to think for themselves. She basically needs to overcome her FEAR of reading anything that will challenge her beliefs. I think I would emphasize the fact that the truth will not only withstand scrutiny, but will be vindicated by it. If the church is true, it has nothing to hide, and studying it will strengthen her/your testimony. And start with church-approved sources. Buy EVERYTHING you use with her at LDS bookstores, at first, or from neutral sources like Barnes and Noble for science/archeaological stuff.

Another tack I've seen people leaving the church use is to beg their loved ones to HELP them see their errors, and study it out together. If you take that approach sincerely, prepared to re-evaluate all that you've learned with her, and question your conclusions about the church (based on the evidence ONLY, not emotional appeals or threats), she might be willing to go there with you. If she refuses to look, like the old catholic leaders refused to look through Galileo's telescope, it just means she's afraid and inflexible. And I would venture to say that kind of reaction implies that she knows somewhere deep inside that it's NOT true.

Anyway, 'nuf said for now.

imaworkinonit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you would benefit from reading "Combatting Cult Mind Control", by Steven Hassan

> http://freedomofmind.com/Media/bookCombatting.php
> He has another book I haven't read, but probably very good.

Hassan IS very good. He gave the main talk a few years ago at the Exmormon Foundation conference.

His book "Combatting..." has been superseded by "Releasing The Bonds." The earlier book contained some information that Hassan no longer endorses (e.g. forceful interventions, and his recommending of the Cult Awareness Network, which was later taken over by the Scientologists).

The only solution is to work them over with blunt instruments--cricke bats and the like. Probably no one is about to do this, so the other choice is to allow them to wallow in wilfull ignorance.

That's pretty much the same sort of analogy I always give. I always say this:

If I were watching the Shopping Network and some really, really expensive item came on the TV that I wanted to buy, there's no way I'd just plunk down that kind of cash without checking things out first.

You don't only listen to the sales pitch and all the people calling in to say how wonderful the product is. You go elsewhere and read the reviews for that product, to help you make that decision. You also check out competing products, to make sure this is the one that you really want.

The LDS Church wants you to pay 10% of your gross income. 10%! That's a huge chunk of change. But they don't want you to read the reviews and they don't want you to check out the competition.

To me, that should send out big red flags to anyone.

Greyfort...I like your analogy.

...and convinces the victims to never listen to what anyone else has to say about the fabulous get-rich-quick scheme. Legit businesses don't.

I like what Tig and Sherlock said both. Very good stuff.

However, in the end, she WANTS to believe its true.

You have to get past her "WANTING" desire to open her to other thoughts and processes.

Here is the bottomline...truth does not destroy one's faith. According to Christianity on the whole, all truth leads back to Christ.

So what is there to fear in truth? Facsimiles in the POGP, Polyandry, Blood Atonement, Adam God etc...

there is no brainwashing in finding truth.

Honey, do you know that THE SUN DOESN'T GET ITS LIGHT FROM KOLOB?

For those of us who are BIC...

At some point, there's a question we all have to ask ourselves...would I believe that this Church is true had I not been born into it? Get into the mindset of of an outsider. Look at other religions; how do you see them? As false, man-made religions. Now ask yourself, why do I see them this way? Be honest with yourself, now; really think about it. What if you were born into a religion you currently believe is false? How would you view Mormonism?

There's something we all have to understand...EVERY religion, EVERY SINGLE ONE, NO EXCEPTIONS, has followers who are just as certain in their convictions as you are. Every. Single. One. Yet not one of them has any sort of logical, emperical basis for their beliefs. There's absolutely no reason to believe Mormonism is any truer than Islam. Once you realize this, you realize how worthless faith is...

You are so right. My TBM sister has said almost the exact thing to me several times in the last few months. She's in the process of figuring out its all a load of BS. I haven't had to say much, she's coming to her own conclusions just fine. I'm sure that my entire family resigning has her a little rattled. She has said over and over that she doesn't blame me. I think she'd resign also, but has too many family connections. Maybe after they retire in a couple of years.