Wow. They talk about everything, except for the things they don't do.

You know, I made the mistake of questioning the Church's expenditures (notably the "building-up" of SLC) to a member of my ward.

She justified the "investment" as insurance that the area surrounding Temple Square would "stay nice", and maintaining the quality of SLC. (Translation: "it will keep the ghetto and the projects away from the Temple.")

I told her that that could have been accomplished in other ways, such as using that money to help enrich the poorer communities of Salt Lake (maybe they could use money toward helping improve the quality of housing...and give "callings" to members talented in such things to do a couple of hours a week towards helping out, kind of like a Habitat for Humanity volunteer?)

Stunned silence followed. And this was from somebody who regularly cleaned bathrooms. I'd rather help the poor than clean a toilet the RS president sat on.

Why a shopping mall? Why not a central park (like NY) with recreation facilities, outdoor concert venue, city creek running through it......? Why was a shopping mall, expensive condos and business offices the only way to accomplish the goal of keeping the area 'nice'?

TBMs will respond that a park would become like Pioneer Park - a place for the homeless. Then give the SLC Rescue Mission the $5 million they've been trying to raise to build a transitional housing campus south of their present location.

If a shopping mall was the best option, why did it need to be done by the church? Why not recruit LDS businessmen to put together a group to make it happen?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 11:47AM by caedmon.

A park might have muggers and people loitering around. A concert space would attract all sorts of unsavory rock and roller types, and we all know about how much the top guys dislike those rock and roller types from the story about that GA and Mick Jagger. They already have a couple hospitals.

What is the "story of the GA and Mick Jagger" ?

A GA (I've generally heard that it was Hinkley) was on a commercial plane seated next to Mick Jagger. They talked for a while, and then Jagger said he was proud to be leading people to Satan.

Having looked online, here's what might be the official story...http://www.ldscompanion.org/index.php?op=stories&id=52. Still not sure I believe it, and the story's certainly annoying, but this one's generally considered true.

After reading the above link the first thought that came into my mind was, "Mick Jagger surely flies First Class. Was Mr. Cook in First Class on the the Church's money? Why do WE have to be thrifty and they get to fly First class?

This has also encouraged me to take my book of Mormon and highlight all the "wrong" parts, so if I'm ever flying first class and an "upper" member of the Church gives me that challenge, I'll pull out MY copy and point out the lies.LOL

The cover is designed to reach the target audience for the message--young people.

It is not repugnant to the younger generations to have their religious messages cartooned--look at how successful the South Park Joseph Smith episode is.

It is not hip to be Mormon, it is dum,dum,dum,dum....

The church is no longer making converts in America, their increase comes from youth who are BIC. This message is for them.

The Mormon Church is a vase of cut flowers. It isn't connected to anything lifegiving and is already wilting.

It is this recognition, in my opinion,that has lead them to diversify their portfolio. They are, after all, just a corporation running a scam. This one has run its course and they are doing what any business does, putting their money where their future revenue is going to be coming from.

They've chosen to invest in tourism and retail sales. And just as you no longer see the Martha Stewart name all over KMART, and KMART is gone, replaced by TARGET with Kim Kardasian's name... The New Mormons will be a modern Christian sect with garments required in the temple, but optional otherwise due to the "healthy outdoor lifestyle of Mormons enjoying the gorgeous contrasts of mountain and desert afforded by the rugged state of Utah, host to extreme sports of all types.

Utah will be Extreme Utah- Why Live Half Way and an entire industry will be built up based on experiential tourism. Windsurfing in Salt Water, Surfing on sand, 4Wheeling in Hot Mud, they will invent Scuba diving for Snakes and every crazy thing for the bored 1%.

It is obvious they are the new target market and the religion and tourism will all be built around "what is wanted" by the elite.

You can't have riffraff downtown. It will become a Disneyland of a downtown instead of the real thing. It's a display case.


Anagrammy

--> The Mormon Church is a vase of cut flowers. It isn't connected to anything lifegiving and is already wilting. <--

Right on sister!

jezebel2mishies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You know, I made the mistake of questioning the
> Church's expenditures (notably the "building-up"
> of SLC) to a member of my ward.
>
> She justified the "investment" as insurance that
> the area surrounding Temple Square would "stay
> nice", and maintaining the quality of SLC.

yes we wouldn't want the representatives of Jesus Christ rubbing shoulders with harlots and publicans. As I recall, Jesus, himself, only associated with sterling members of society.

I posted on a TBM Friends FB .. He had posted how prejudiced everyone is against mormons..

I posted that .. the church should expect criticism when they claim that Christ is the head of their church, and then they do things that are so obviously opposite what Christ would have done. Seriously? A mall and luxury Condos.. vs. feeding , schooling and medicating.. thousands upon thousands of people in needy third world countries? THAT'S the choice Christ would have made?

Of course.. he defriended me.

They are all so predictable.

Yep, ask them to show you the luxury mall Christ built. As the all powerful son of God he surely could have done it if he had wanted to. Salvation through shopping!

And the man said unto Jesus, "What must I do to gain salvation?"

And Jesus replied, "sell all you have and build a mall and luxury condominiums."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 02:49PM by baura.

(Mormon, oblivious to the world around him, bumps against someone walking down the street)

Someone: "Hey, watch where you're going."

Mormon: "Oh, the persecution!"

Great post Kyle...you don't need that kind of friend.

When Mormons play the persecution card, their proverbial "ace in the hole," they are showing signs of desperation.

That card lost a lot of its lustre when the corporation went after Prop Hate with such a vengeance.

Defending the defenseless makes apologists of everyone. They can't take the cold hard facts the numbers show: billions for the Mall and real estate ventures and pennies for humanitarian aid.

Wait for them to adjust their definitions of "humanitarian" and "aid" so they can change the numbers. Hope they necrodunked George Orwell. Someone is going to have to channel him.

Takes a lot of energy to argue with reality.

I looked at the Deseret News "article" this morning. The great propaganda sheet. They act as if they were the audience of the article. "It's all about me, and they got it wrong. Poor me!" Typical narcissism. The article is designed to inform interested readers about a corporation sole operating out of the state of Utah--one that has the membership of a presidential candidate.

I can hear BKP and the other ancients with middle initials saying, "Damn the Internet! Full speed ahead!"

All the more reason to build something that will provide additional revenue as tithing receipts plummet.

going on and on about financial independence, as if that were somehow a problem for an organization that grew rich creating hardship for its members and even got a law passed so the ones in bankruptcy could continue to pay their tithing.

Martin Harris mortgaged his farm because he was persuaded by his con-man buddy, who couldn't get credit due to his reputation. Notice how they leave that out, along with the fact that Harris eventually lost the farm and his wife and reputation, too.

And to invoke the sacrifices of the others who were conned and even killed by their scumbag con-man founder and his less charismatic scumbag successor--ugh! Disgusting.

The Gordon Hinckley quote puts a nice pink bow on their big, smelly sack of con-man shit.

I wonder if the members' reactions would have been any less exaggerated and more thoughtful if the cover had been different. Several members over the last few years have expressed dismay and confusion over the financial roles of the church. An article like this if presented properly could maybe push them over the edge. Rather than see the answers for themselves, they see the cover and snap into "protect the church" mode and probably won't even dare to read it.

The 'irreverence' and sarcasm of the cover diminishes the credibility of what is a good article. It allows the conversation to be about the cover rather than the content.

People are so inundated with information every day that a cover of a magazine needs to grab and hold your attention long enough to create interest.

If the cover was yet another photo of the SLC temple or dollar signs (every financial magazine does that) or any other more innocuous choices, how many people would have noticed? Maybe the outraged Mormons.

This has the attention of many, even those who are offended. I say Let! Them! Talk! Talking can lead to investigation to prove how wrong those angry enemies of the church are. How many of us are out because we started investigating either to enhance a lesson we were teaching or because we wanted to silence a critic?

Perhaps.... but the intended audience was not current mormons with an intent to de-convert them.

Now is not a good time to be a mormon. Sure, they may be in "protect mode," but I'm pretty sure most aren't very confident now about going out into the real world, around the water cooler, staff lounge, etc, and proudly answer questions about mormonism.

If mormonism wanted to quietly (and to themselves) practice their religion, then it would be a different story. But they obviously and overtly impress themselves upon the societies around them. Quieting them back into "protect mode" is a good thing.

^^^ so much of this ^^^

"the intended audience was not current mormons"

The cover pulls no punches. It makes it clear that Mormonism is an absolute scam and that it goes back to the original con-man, Joseph Smith. The downside is that the cover may be seen as "Mormon bashing" and could take away from the focus of the article.

But I think it's getting to the point where the gloves are off. People are no longer willing to "play nice" when it comes to Mormonism. The Mormons are so heavily into spinning, sugar-coating and lying that everyone is fed up with them.

I never missed it. It was like tax, it came off the top and I didn't even consider my money to miss.
The church teaches prospective converts and kids about tithing with a cute picture that shows a childlike stack of dimes...a dime for every dollar. Just a little bit.
But it's not proporational like that.
A flat tax, as many social justice advocates argue, is harder on a lower income.
The reason is simply that the basic necessities of life (BNL)...food, clothes, shelter, medicine, etc., have a relatively fixed minimum cost. If you have more than enough for BNL, you have discretionary income. If you only have enough, or not enough for BNL, you have no discretionary income...ALL of it goes to BNL! Therefore, there is a lower threshold at which tithing or any other tax eats into BNL funds and the physical welfare of the person is in jeopardy.

In my case, as TBM student and parent, we paid tithing not even recognizing what a hardship it was. I had to work a second job which hurt my grades and had affected my career ever since. We had to raise small children in a small apartment years longer than our peers. At age 40+ I still have never owned a house.

We had discretionary income but it wasn't much. If you look at tithing only as 10% you "entirely miss the point" (quoting the article). Actually, for us, tithing was more like 30-40% of our discretionary income. That's money we didn't save, didn't invest, didn't repay debt with, and didn't spend on our kids or ourselves...other than to indoctrinate ourselves with mormonism.
Tithing was our 2nd largest expense after rent. It was more than our car budget (although we only had one car and I rode the bus).
The church assumes ownership of 10% of their members' money by citing the bible...which is bullshit in itself...but even if the bible were true, Mormon tithing is not biblical. By making it compulsory for temple admission the church makes it a membership fee...not a "voluntary" "donation". The terms voluntary and donation mean that services are not denied for not donating. But if you don't pay tithing you lose major priviledges in the mormon church. You can't go to the temple which means you can't be sealed or exhalted...which means quite literally that you have to pay a ransom for your own family and soul.

The church advertizes its tithe-payer base as a smiling bunch of generous folk...not admitting that they HAVE to pay it to remain in "good standing". It's not voluntary and therefore it's arguably NOT a donation. It's a fee.

amos2...I never thought of it that way but you are right....it is not a donation - it is a fee. Why? It's a fee because it is REQUIRED to remain in good standing. Jesus would never approve.

I always thought a flat tax was the most fair system but you put it so plainly and logically that I finally understand why it isn't.
Thanks.

About the cover, I think it's not the greatest aesthetically. However, I like that it just says straight out about the mall, etc. you have no choice but to see it. It gets right to the point. A TBM might see this and be offended but atleast they have seen it and now they have to struggle with the mental gymnastics to defend their corporation..er, church. Other TBMs might see this and read the article or do their own investigation and find their way out.

It's a win-win!

The advantage of this cover is that it will attract non-Mormons to read the article. Getting non-Mos to read it is more important than getting BIC types to read it. It gives fuel to non-Mos to reject missionary approaches.

I think about full tithe paying mormons I knew that were financially struggling.

Just think, if they took that 10% and did nothing but paid off interest on home and car loans (or school if they had that)what a difference it would make in their lives long term.

It could be the difference between poor or middle class. Educated or uneducated. It's certainly the difference between a poor or good diet. Diet adds up to big dollars in your senior years.

It could be the difference between being dependent on church and govt. down the road or being independent.

It could have a profound effect over your overall mental health. IMO nothing is more depressing than chronic poverty.

To take money from poor struggling college students, young families, and the elderly is evil. They are literally depriving people of good nutrition , opportunities, and possibly good health.

If you live in SLC you can always go visit the mall and see how your money was spent. When I was poor, I couldn't have bought a pair of socks at that mall. A small soda would have been a splurge. If I had spent a years worth ofmy tithing money there, I could have bought a designer handbag. Not tops on my list.

It's only a very tiny minority of mormons that will ever see that mall. If you live in Europe, why would you care to give money to prevent urban blight in SLC? It's only the people who live in that city who care. My nearest city could use a $5B boost, but I don't expect the local church to foot the bill. The church basically robbed the entire membership to make the 15's surroundings very lush.

The last time I was in Utah, was the last time I paid tithing. I was stunned how much nicer the churches and temples were. Much better than anywhere I had lived. They were tearing down a church building that was nicer than the one i'd been going to for ten years. It was very clear to me that my tithing money was being spent in a place that meant nothing to me. A place that I most likely will never go again. Why should I be spending my families money to make Utah a better place to live? I felt angry and resentful about that. That was the beginning of the end for me.

I know that this cover will definitely be instrumental in keeping people from ever joining but I still think it can also help get some TBMs free from TSCC, just by having the controversial cover that clearly shows the church spending its money on a mall.

I'd like to save everyone! :)

I thought it was a good article, but I think the cover not only detracted from the message, but the cover indignified the message. Its the kind of cover that belongs on the National Enquirer or some other sensationalist rag, not a respectable publication like Business Week.