And these mormon families, who are -- rightfully -- mocked by society for walling off the reason/rational-thinking part of their brains, are actually the ones who enter heaven because the Creator knows they suffered being mocked (or "persecuted" according to them)?

They, Mormons, let you "mock" them without retaliating.

You have some guy who believes in nothing (Atheism!) and has a fancy degree from an even fancier, elitist university, who gives you man-made "theories" (SCIENCE!) to make religious, good-natured people, like Mormons, believers in nothing (Atheism, again!) like that intellectual with a white lab coat who has no values, just "science," who has the answers to everything, except what happens to the soul.

Wouldn't that be one wicked trick from a loving God?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2012 04:39PM by newcomer.

Mormonism CAN'T be true because DNA says otherwise.

Lamanites and Nephites never existed, the Book of Mormon is fiction.

DNA of the American Indians clearly shows that they came from Asia - they are NOT of Semitic descend.

Neither are the Polynesians. DNA shows that they originated in Taiwan.

Yep, God will award the sexist, racist, bigoted ones who blindly follow what they were taught to believe without researching it. Makes sense

A "loving God" wouldn't behave that way.

A "loving God" would realize that we are it's creation and any imperfection that we may have was put there by himself and would not punish them for doing the best they can.

I have yet to see any religion truly promote such a "God"... Not to mention the more we learn the less we seem to need "God" to explain things.

Until the reverse is true, I will be true to myself, any true all knowing, all loving "God" should respect that, if not I will enjoy an eternity of hell with the rest of humanity, where we will all burn together.

First off. There's no way it's true. Now that I have that out of the way; I won't throw my lot in with anyone who behaves the way God, Joseph, Brigham or any of the others behave. I won't cooperate, I won't agree, I'll fight it to my last. If I'm damned for being a good person who genuinely cares for others then I'll accept it.

When I separated myself from the Church, my initial idea was to reject god as well because all i knew of god was from the LDS model. I've come to believe that God is much more than the lDs or even the Judeo-Christian representation.

My god is not a vengeful God, but others are free to hold whatever beliefs work for them.

True free agency -- not the kind the LDS Church purports that we all have -- is a beautiful thing.

I might get flamed by this, I dunno.

But here is my take:

If the mormon church is true, then there is nothing more important than returning to live with God for eternity.

Nothing.

I would live a celibate chaste life (I've done it before and I can do it again). I can refuse coffee. I've never been able to really enjoy alcohol, so that's a breeze. I wouldn't marry a woman, I would simply be an out gay, celibate man who would struggle with the big "M". I would go to the full three hour block. I would attend temple weekly. No problems.

If it is true. Now, I've known a lot of "if's", and there is not a bigger "if" than this one.

I'm not a statitician, but would love if one could run the numbers. Joseph smith, polygamy, MMM, First Vision versions, WoW, BoM, BoA, Adam God, God sticking it to Mary, temple, temple changes, BY, Hoffman forgeries, Blacks/Priesthood, Kinderhook, historical lies and coverups and i'm sure the list could continue.

GBH said it the best. The (mormon) church stands or falls on the testimony of JS. Either god & jesus marched right up to JS or they didn't. If they did, the work is true. IF they didn't then this entire thing is a fraud.

As none of us were there in the grove with JS, then all we have is his testmony. We shall forget about the problems with the myriad versions of the 1st vision. Forget all that.

We have to decide if JS was the type to lie or fabricate a truth. Enter the Book of Abraham. Enter the 1826 treasure hunting law thinggy. Enter the flaming sword. Enter polygamy. Enter the Nauvoo Expositor.

I think I've made my point.

Levi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As none of us were there in the grove with JS, then all we have is his testimony.

> We have to decide if JS was the type to lie or fabricate a truth.

I agree completely. I have no more reason to trust the testimony of Joseph Smith than I do to trust the promises of a "contractor" who knocks on my door and wants to pave my driveway because he just happens to have some leftover asphalt from another job.

You ask What if TSCC was true?
And WHAT IF.......JS was one of the false profits God warned humans about; those false profits preaching false doctrines (in Mo-ism's case, they can't decide on the doctrine so they keep chaning it), insuring that it is for sure false. Real true doctrine remains the same, it does not change as if God suddenly changes his mind. Mo-ism is also all about pluralism, plural wives, plural gods, plural doctrines constantly changing etc.
God also warned that false profits (actual dark demonic types) would be associated with bright white lights...enter JS again. It still shocks me to think how Mos blindly put on their aprons when Lucifer asks them to.......DUH! Could that be a bad idea? Why is Lucifer in the Temple anyway? Normal people (non-Mos) are not allowed. So in my opinion, Lucifer is a Mo because he is allowed in the Temple.
Levi is right in everything he said.....I just had to add some.

Mo-ism is NOT TRUE........anyone with critical thinking skills that they actually USE will agree.
Think about Kolob and Battlestar Gallactica. How much more proof do you need?
If for some reason (some miniscule chance that a fraction of it is true), I still want nothing to do with it because JS was a criminal, child rapist, liar, asshole and if he is guarding heaven's door, I'd rather rot in Hell.
ANother thing - I don't know why TBMs think that non-Mos can't possibly have values and can't possibly care about other people. You elitist creeps. Which of you many gods told you that your word is god's word. You are not gods yet. You are on a demonic path so stop being so self-righteous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2012 04:20AM by enoughenoch19.

Just something to think about. Don't close your minds.

My mind is far more open since leaving the church... In order to leave it open, I won't be going back.

To put it another way... as a TBM, I wouldn't even allow the question, "What if the church were false?"

Whose mind is more open? The ex-mo who can entertain the question of whether or not god exists, or the TBM who can't even consider the opposite?

Open your own mind.

Facts don't care what "might" be true. Facts are more stubborn. They propound until the evidence against Mormonism is so overwhelming that some see the light and confirm its falsity.

Then, they come to atheism, and NOT nihilism (look it up). Atheism is the outcome to a commitment to truth. When one accepts reason and science as the only avenues to discerning truth from falsehood, then one has committed to everything, not nothing. Reality is so full of wonder, decency, colour, and flourish that we, atheists, finally understand what it means to accept "something." it is deists and theists who accept a delusion and then assume that thier deluded state is something.

BTW... You are a troll. Go back under your bridge.

HH. =)

Happy_Heretic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Facts don't care what "might" be true. Facts are
> more stubborn. They propound until the evidence
> against Mormonism is so overwhelming that some see
> the light and confirm its falsity.
>
> Then, they come to atheism, and NOT nihilism (look
> it up). Atheism is the outcome to a commitment to
> truth. When one accepts reason and science as the
> only avenues to discerning truth from falsehood,
> then one has committed to everything, not nothing.
> Reality is so full of wonder, decency, colour,
> and flourish that we, atheists, finally understand
> what it means to accept "something." it is deists
> and theists who accept a delusion and then assume
> that thier deluded state is something.
>
> BTW... You are a troll. Go back under your
> bridge.
>
> HH. =)

That's funny that you call me a troll. (Don't trolls engage in name calling?) I actually was presented with the BoM on campus and I was given this value proposition that I made this thread with. I know the mormon church is false. I didn't need to act condescending like you. I'm comfortable enough in my belief system enough to not lash out at people.

The "Don't close your mind" comment was said to me as I started to walk away. I said "Thank you" and headed towards class. I didn't call those missionaries out their names. I don't need to. I know better. I have the power, not them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2012 03:59PM by newcomer.

Sorry newcomer, but surely you can realize, that quoting a "missionary's advice" would tend to be seen as inflammatory on an exmo board? You didn't qualify your comment either, just tossed it out there naked.

People here are sensitive about tbm's posting pro-lds stuff.

hello Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry newcomer, but surely you can realize, that
> quoting a "missionary's advice" would tend to be
> seen as inflammatory on an exmo board? You didn't
> qualify your comment either, just tossed it out
> there naked.
>
> People here are sensitive about tbm's posting
> pro-lds stuff.


I can understand the sensitivity but to a point. We know the truth right? So, what's there to be sensitive about when someone's trying to pitch a defective product?

Well, newcomer, for one thing, it is against the rules of this board to defend the Mo church.

I'm glad you're so secure in yourself, but you should be aware of the board rules and the sensitivities of other posters. I don't condemn you, but you act like you don't get why others will call you on things like this. It's simple, really.

No, trolls do not necessarily engage in name calling. Trolls go where they are not wanted/needed and drop B.S. comments/queries and try to elicit reponses.

Your response makes no sense, and thus your are lying. Your assertion regarding atheists reflects your trolling. You may be comfortable with your beliefs, but you obviuosly, then, are not exmormon/Mormon/atheist. However, you feel the need to come here and make bullshit statements and assert strawman fallacies. Troll.

HH. =).

Have a nice day.

Happy_Heretic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, trolls do not necessarily engage in name
> calling. Trolls go where they are not
> wanted/needed and drop B.S. comments/queries and
> try to elicit reponses.
>
> Your response makes no sense, and thus your are
> lying. Your assertion regarding atheists reflects
> your trolling. You may be comfortable with your
> beliefs, but you obviuosly, then, are not
> exmormon/Mormon/atheist. However, you feel the
> need to come here and make bullshit statements and
> assert strawman fallacies. Troll.
>
> HH. =).
>
> Have a nice day.


I think people will see the troll. It's the insecure one doing the name calling and telling people what they haven't had happened to them.

You sure are behaving like someone who is NOT confident in what he believes in, especially with the name calling and telling someone what didn't happen.

You have a nice day, now, luv.

PS: My original post wasn't even satire, it was sarcasm, obviously. Just check the notes in these --> (Duh!). And the comment about the BoM being a 19th Century Windows Security Patch update for a computer? Flyboy and a few others understood the sarcasm; some clearly didn't.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2012 07:18PM by newcomer.

I don't think we've closed our minds.

I think many of us would gladly consider evidence. Most threads here revolve around evidence of various things in regards to mormonism.

On the other hand, there are also those like me who find a God consistent with Mormonism to be unworthy of worship. So even if Mormonism is 100% true and that's the way eternity will be, I find the concept and pratice thereof repugnant and will not participate in it. I will not worship that God, Jesus or HG.

If the church is true then God has given his prophets the thumbs up on lieing.

But see, therein lies the conundrum.

God has said that lieing is of the Devil sooooooo...

If Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and the other founding fathers of this religion had been honest, in their dealings not only with their fellow man but especially with their families (supposedly the most important part of the church) then they may have a leg to stand on.

They were not.

Then all else must fall.


if the church were true, Joseph wouldn't have lied to his wife and friends. Brigham Young wouldn't have been a hateful biggot.

I believe it is the church that throws the 'by their fruits ye shall know them' quote around.

At least they that is true, and the fruits of JS were to create dissention in his family because he couldn't keep his pants on around the help.

I'm not going to go on there's no need.

Being a divorced dad with a rabid-TBM ex, things with my kids would probably have been a lot easier had I KNOWN that it was true, and lived accordingly.

As it is, I refuse to foist on my kids the same burden that I had to overcome some 20 odd years ago.

The UNtruth of mormonism is so glaring as to almost be blinding.

The benefits of drinking a cold beer after mowing the lawn, or shopping at Costco in Lehi on Sunday, are ancillary to the real issue: That mormonism is a construed sham to bilk people of their money, and to shower a select few with adulations and fame.

If I ever find myself asking that question about "the church", I just substitute "the church" for "Scientology". It is no more likely (or provable) that a mythical "God" lives on a glass planet near the star Kolob than it is the mythical "god" Xenu brought billions of Human aliens to Earth 75 billion years ago before blowing them all up with hydrogen bombs.

(Or for that matter that eating a piece of edible paper turns it into a part of the mythical "god" Jesus - Catholics, take note!)

Let's say it ALL...is true...
Mormon heaven (the 3-tiered MLM).
Celestial wiveS...plural for the dudes..
Spirit babies.
The planet Kolob.
Being "like Adam...aka your own god of your own planet...

ALL of it is true..........




There is NOOOOO way I would want to nor could I spend an eternity with the mormon holy rollers in the top tier of heaven.
WAYYYYYYY too boring...
The Terestial Kingdom works just fine for me..

Someone who asks, "What if the Mormon Church is true" has only ever looked at the question from the Mormon point of view. People on this board have lived that position for some portion of their life (with me it was 40 years a TBM) and came to the conclusion that Mormonism was not true.
The question I have for newcomer is - What if it is not true?

What if your silly temple rituals were just that?
What if it is just a very large corporation making lots of money?
What if Mormonism wouldn't get you to the Celestial Kingdom?
What if it is just a big MLM and you are just one of the lowly sheeple?
What if the Book of Mormon is as much a fraud as it appears to be from the anachronisms?
What if the Book of Abraham is as false as it appears to be based on the information on the scrolls it supposedly came from?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2012 05:19PM by Jim Huston.

It's not. 'Nuff said.

I think most people here are not interested in "what if" scenarios concerning the truthfulness of the church. Most of us have already done that, but from the opposite point of view as mormons..."what if the church isn't true".

Having gone through the process of finally allowing that possibility to enter our heads, then coming the realization that it isn't true after all.....going back to the "what if it is true" mind set is pretty much impossible. And with the mountains of evidence against it being true, it's very pointless to even consider it.

That is why you are taking flack and being called a troll over the post. You might as well have posted "what if Santa is real"...except you wouldn't get the defensive responses because Santa hasn't caused as much damage as the mormon church.

You may think its a provocative question that will stir up a lively discussion, but as you can see, with this crowd, it didn't work.....hence the age old phrase "know your audience".