I grew up in a polygamous household and it is my opinion that all the statements about polygamy being about slavery, brainwashing, abuse, tax fraud, welfare costs, etc are plain ignorant. Religion in general is full of these very things. TV Evangelists raising millions from their welfare recipient viewers/listeners, tithing from widows on social security. Just a couple examples.

The place I grew up in has some interesting history. For the past 16+ years the Valedictorian and/or Salutatorian of the public school, where many of them attend, was a polygamist child including this last year where they announced four Valedictorians. 3 out of the 4 were plyg kids. Interesting "wasted humanity".

Just because you disagree with a 'lifestyle choice' doesn't mean you have the right to be an A$$ about it. When I left the AUB and TSCC, I was very much against polygamy. I was also very much against gays, lesbians, interracial relationships, etc. Everyone of these is more or less just religious ignorance/bias. When do we get past the hate mongering? I have come to realize the the government has no right to govern morality between consenting adults.


A little side note...You can get arrested for smoking marijuana even if you have a prescription, but if you claim it as part of your religious practice, then you are immune to the law. WTF?

And not exhibiting symptoms of denial so obvious they're apparent to me across cyberspace, you'd have some awareness of the epidemic levels of child sexual abuse in the various polygamous sects.

That "hate mongering" strawman was invented in Brigham Young's day; perhaps you should read the bit of history some of us really knowledgeable sorts posted on some dead bodies that turned up in Southern Utah in 1857. It's on another thread...

Sorry, but I don't consider it being an ass to be against sexual abuse or murder . . .

But showing apathy and ignorance about these problems? Well that's inexcusable. Particularly in this community! People who worry about women scorned have never felt the wrath of a determined philosopher. When I get even, people know it right away. I seem to recall a man named Jeffs who really pissed me off once. I know right where to hit them where it hurts.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2010 04:38AM by Troy.

It's no accident that Owen Allred dismissed three of his apostles over the course of several years amid allegations of child sexual abuse. One of them even went to prison. People in the AUB trusted these men with everything most precious to them, and they used their religious authority to intimidate children into doing their sexual bidding. The things I know about these people would give Satan nightmares. Saying that polygamy threatens human rights is the most polite thing I can about them. When I finish what I've set out to do, this country is never going to forget it.

So relax and pop some popcorn. I'll do the heavy work.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2010 05:03AM by Troy.

"Just because you disagree with a 'lifestyle choice' doesn't mean you have the right to be an A$$ about it."
____________________________________

The "right" to be an ass? Let's hear you explain how that works. Go ahead. Human rights are my specialty and now you've got me curious. What's the theoretical background supporting your statement? I'm all ears. You don't think you're going to question my rights without me noticing now, do you?

What I have the "right" to is freedom of expression. But I never run out of people who suggest that I should curtail my exercise of this right. Some people just come right out and plead with me to say no more.

You've mentioned students from polygamous society who have achieved academic honors. Good for them. But I know what the real story is with religious cults like the AUB and their fear of education. Care to hear any of my stories about getting an education from these folks? I'll tell you one thing, nobody ever wanted me to become a political philosopher. That is something I achieved despite considerable opposition from certain family members. When they couldn't manipulate and intimidate me, they begged me to change academic programs. The people who got between me and my educational aspirations ended up in the ditch. I used to eat valedictorians for breakfast, but I'm a vegetarian now. I found them a bit bland.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2010 06:47AM by Troy.

that each person gets to participate in "society" any way he or she damn well pleases. No one is obligated to conform to societal norms. No one is obligated to "contribute to the greater good." If a person wants to blend into society and become a cog wheel, fine. And if a person wants to completely check out of society and not contribute one red cent, that's his or her choice. Additionally, if someone wants to suck off the welfare state for his or her entire life, again, that's his or her choice.

The idea that children need to "perform" in mandatory government schools, and if they don't they're "wasted humanity," is just sickening to me.

I agree with xaub; thanks for your post.

Thank you Troy for your insightful BS. Is that what your degree is in?

"When I finish what I've set out to do, this country is never going to forget it." What a load of crap. It must be nice to have a sounding board all to yourself.

SL Cabbie
As far as sexual abuse goes, like I stated before, this happens in every religion and culture. "Symptoms of denial?" Try doing a little more research into other areas other than those you are bitter about.

Since your stint here is certain to be short, given the way you abuse people, I'll just give you the bare details: I learned about denial before you were born, from firsthand experience, and then followed with a lot of research and observation.... And Troy also knows of my contact with polygs; not as extensive as his, but enough to recognize crazy, sick stuff for what it is.

BTW, I've had to bet my life on what I've learned, and, well, I'm still typing...

I've learned denial consists of a series of absolutely ego-centric beliefs (look that word ego-centric up) that justifies the most errant nonsense; the self-centeredness in what you say is found in your "god-like" claim that society is one way, and you're the self-annointed authority. In truth, societies vary. In ours, there are laws and sanctions against deviancy--despite your denials--and your "because-I-said-so" defense amounts to the ordinary run-of-the-mill narcissism we typically find in the home-schooled crowd.

And I was underwhelmed by the shell game that justified the existence of sexual abuse with that old adolescent "everyone's doing it" defense.

Everyone isn't doing it, and those that have engaged in, enabled, or otherwise helped perpetuate the practice are being called to account for their actions.

In this case, society is demonstrating that it owes those victims the assumption of authority to attempt to suppress or at least minimize those practices.

Please tell use how these men in your polygamist community supported so many children... the fact is, these groups are often abusing the welfare system.

If people are committing welfare fraud, they should be punished under existing fraud laws.

However, if the state is providing these families with welfare, that's not "abuse." The state has decided that they qualify, and is giving them welfare money or food stamps or other aid.

Often, people call it "abuse" when they just don't like a particular family getting "too much" (or any) welfare.

If there's fraud going on, then that's another matter. If there's a higher percentage of polygamist families who receive welfare from the state, that doesn't equal "abuse." The welfare is there for people who qualify, and if they qualify, they qualify.

forced by law to support his children or GO TO JAIL.
And the mothers, too. There is NO REASON they should qualify for welfare. They should all be working and supporting the children they CHOSE to create.
It's a big scam, just like the Mormon students who have kids while they are still in school, and live off welfare and Medicaid.

"It" being the welfare system itself.

The current system, yes.
I wouldn't mind if it were actually limited to people in emergency situations, temporarily.

of lifestyle.
You have the right to it, but you have to PAY for it yourself.
You chose it.

So xaub has personal experience living in a polygamous community and even in a polygamous family. First hand experience.

Now, xaub's personal experience is that polygamy is not all it is portrayed by the news media. We all know that the media only reports the fantastic. Warren Jeffs was just like good ole Joe Smith in that he married and gave to marriage teenage girls who were still children. That doesn't mean that all polygamous families are screwed up and they all practice child abuse.

There are plenty of stories about morgbot families abusing children, sexually and physically, and of morgbot leaders doing the same. But we all know that these cases are not the norm in the general membership of the morg.

I was listening to a radio talk show the other day and they were talking about Sister Wives. They asked women to call in and express their feeling on if they would participate in polygamy if it were accepted legally and socially. Surprisingly there were a few women who said they would enjoy having another woman or two around the house to help with kids and satisfying hubby. So not everybody thinks polygamy is a horrible thing and I feel like xaub in that if they are consenting adults, let them do what they want.

Being out of the morg has taught me one thing that has proven so valuable to me. Acceptance of others. I find it so much easier to accept others, regardless of their beliefs or way of life or whatever. I have met some amazing people who I would not have otherwise met. I say live and let live and if your living doesn't hurt anyone else, live the way you want.

It broadens my perspective to read how different people deal with highly charged emotional issues, such as polygamy. Thanks to information I have gleaned, I have found that I tend
to take a more moderate view and incorporate tolerance,and understanding that not everyone lives their lives the same. Not today, and not in the history of humanity.

Take a look at different societies and we see that we are just one of thousands.

I was particularly interested by the program on TV the other day on the Bedouins and how many still live polygamy in today's society in Israel.
One man had a wife in the country, in that life style, herding sheep, no modern appliances, and one in the city, complete with electrical appliances, etc. Of course, he had a cell phone to contact both families that he shared his time with.

And buy you a burka...

Or would you prefer a new hair-do with the tied-up braids that are so fashionable among the polygamist/fundie crowd; we'll get you a skirt made of homespun (or maybe even some store-bought gingham to make a dress; just no slacks or pants since they're of the Devil), and you'll look just like everyone else in Hilldale or Colorado City or Bountiful up in B.C....

BTW, the Bedouins are little more than a step removed from the Stone Age, and while it's fine to think their culture is interesting and admire their capacity for survival, in truth much of this world's troubles came from European colonialism's exploiting of the lands they'd occupied--which nobody else wanted until they found oil beneath it--and not fully addressing those people's needs to permit entry into the Modern Age via education... What education was offered was selective--by bringing some to outside universities and such--and that created the conflicts we see today. Islamic fundamentalism--go ahead, make my day and defend that one--arose as a reaction to the psychotic "partial Westernization" imposed from outside.

The primitive superstitions of the original uneducated sorts created the backlash and conflicts we're seeing today.

Similarly, defenders of polygamy such as "xaub" are encouraging similar excesses (and very real evils in many cases) by supporting what George Orwell called, "a defense of the indefensible."

Let's just outlaw lifestyles that are archaic! Problem solved!

If primitivism is against the law, nobody will do it anymore. It'll be great! We'll outlaw clothes that aren't "modern" enough, ban the use of horses for transportation, force everybody use the latest smartphones, and force everyone to send their children to government schools. Voila! Instant virtue and goodwill! Instant equality of the sexes! Instant eradication of child abuse!

Why didn't anybody think of this before?

Let's ban poverty and outlaw disease, while we're at it.

Here's the original M.O., folks, developed to almost a high art form in Happy Valley higher education...

Take a set of old clothes (the D.I. is an excellent source), stuff with straw; procure a pillow case for a head--either fabric scraps or magic marker works fine for the face--and then apply a flame (flammable accelerants such as gasoline are optional).

Admire all the light provided, and proclaim victory for the forces of enlightment and reason...

Seriously, bub, it's back to the ninth grade for you; that sophomoric suggestion is an insult to most here...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2010 04:29PM by SL Cabbie.

The push to eradicate polygamy is based on hatred for a particular group, and the illusion that a government crackdown to force people at the point of a gun to live the way you think they ought to live will solve any problems at all.

When it looks like it, smells like it and acts like it, you call it what it is!

Timothy

>The push to eradicate polygamy is based on hatred for a particular group...

Besides the fantasy of attributing non-existent motives to people who care about the welfare of brainwashed women and the children under their domination (that's what makes your claim a strawman), that's pure deformed Brigham Youngese, stuff he used to rile them up in Southern Utah to murder a bunch of innocent folks from Arkansas...

Read the other threads, and possibly, just possibly, you might get a bit of an education, although you'll probably throw up a few times if that miracle happens...

I say, why not.
We just need to get the government out of the marriage business.

I prefer my own lifestyle, and dress. I am not interested in any religious attire for myself.
That ought to be obvious.

<<A little side note...You can get arrested for smoking marijuana even if you have a prescription, but if you claim it as part of your religious practice, then you are immune to the law. WTF?>>

Do not try this. You will go to jail. You are not immune from the law if you claim you use weed as part of your religious practice. Complete and utter BS.