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Posted by: ElderEx ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 06:28AM

I have looked for years to find even one instance of a mormon hiding a japanese-american to keep them from going to the internment camp?
I know they were happy to have the camps for the jobs.
For a people that claim to believe the constitution is divinely inspired I have yet to find one with the b@lls to have done it.
Those righteous Jew-hiding Germans, French, Dutch, etc sure do make God's 'special' people look bad.
Seriously, I am an avid student of history and in decades of reading and study I have never found one example. I am about to conclude none of the mormons gave a d@mn about them. Does anyone have any info about any mormon who hid japanese-americans? Help me find a hero.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 06:53AM

But in Germany, mormons did ban those of Jewish decent from attending the mormon church. They also exed and turned in to the Nazis a mormon teen for being involved in anti-Nazi activism. The young man was then tortured and beheaded.

Hitler gave special permission to mormon missionaries to preach in Germany throughout the war.

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Posted by: ad42 ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 06:57AM

Wow Cheril. Please provide some links to your very interesting statements.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 06:59AM

which was written by a BYU prof.

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Posted by: fidget ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 07:00AM

I'd need to see linked proof too.

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Posted by: S. Tissue Trotter ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 07:26AM

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Posted by: veeeeeeryinterestingstuff ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 08:17AM

"In 1979 Brigham Young University professor Thomas Rogers wrote a play titled Huebener, which has had several runs in various venues."

I wonder if that play told that Helmuth was excommunicated from the church.....

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 08:20AM

he was reinstated in the church several years after his death.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 07:19PM

This particular article doesn't indicate that the Mormon's had anything to do with turning him in.

It does validate the "Jews not welcome here" sign and the excommunication however.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 07:27AM

Last time I was in the BYU bookstore there were at least two books on this subject.

In 1937 mormon President Grant visited German and told the members to get along as best they could with the Nazis because, "We want to keep the church intact and the missionaries working."

The local German Saints were happy to follow this advice and the Mormons and Nazis coexisted comfortably. When there were major Hitler or Geobbels speeches on the radio the branch president played them instead of regular sacrament meeting talks.

In 1938 the mormons put up a sign reading "JUDEN ENTRITT VERBOTEN!" meaning "JEWS NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER." They also hung a Swasika flag in the meeting hall.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2012 07:37AM by Cheryl.

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Posted by: ElderEx ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 09:08AM

I had forgotten about Hubener.

Wouldn't his excommunication have to have received final approval from higher up? The lack of inspiration goes all the way to the top, from the excommunication to calling that bishop in the first place.

Helmuth was guilty of the one capital crime of mormonism, thinking for himself.

He was a better man than his leaders and almost every German member.

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 09:42AM

I think the locals couldn't get in touch with higher ups and excom'd him themselves. Higher ups did finally reverse the excom if I remember correctly.

And remember, that wikipedia source may be heavily spun by Mormons. They are all over wikipedia.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2012 09:42AM by Heresy.

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 09:46AM

Wasn't he a teenager? Women and aaronic priesthood leaders can be excommunicated by a Bishop or Branch President. Only adult males are entitled to Courts of Love.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 09:54AM

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Posted by: roxy ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 07:27PM

Ohh I didn't know that - is that still true today? that I would never been called to sit in one?

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 07:44PM

The bishop still holds a "court of love" but only with himself and his counselors. Does the ward clerk and/or executive secretary also attend? - I'm not sure, but I'd guess the clerk would also attend.

Also, a bishop can do a "court of love" for Melchizedek priesthood holders when excommunication is not being considered.

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Posted by: Samantha Baker ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 09:08AM

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Posted by: ambivalent exmo ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 07:13PM

It happens to me every day I read here;
just when I think I have reached the
Bottom of the cesspool that is all things Mormon,
It just gets worse....

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 09:40PM,632848

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2012 09:55PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: alx71ut ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 09:23AM

My grandfather was a nevermo German-American living in Los Angeles with his unbelieving Mormon wife who was fully descended from righteous 19th century Mormon pioneer polygs in Utah. In January 1942 he was put in an internment camp before my grandma had a chance to hide him away. 40 months later after V-E Day he was released. It really bugs me how people will spread lies that Germans weren't interned like the Japanese during WW2. True it wasn't as widespread but it did happen to tens of thousands of German-American families. My family is still suffering some residual affects of the internment of grandpa.

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 09:32AM

Typically, only members of the German American Bund, or those suspected of being members, were interned. Someone thought your grandfather was a loyal Nazi, though this doesn't mean he actually was one.

Interesting point, there was an American bomber pilot during World War II, by the name of Werner Goring, who flew several missions dropping bombs over Germany. His uncle was Herman Goring, one of the top Nazis in Germany, and head of the Luftwaffe, which was the German Air Force.

There were a lot of Germans who were given a chance to prove themselves.

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Posted by: ElderEx ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 04:25PM

You are right, alx71ut. German-Americans were also interned. So let's revise the question.

Did any mormon, anywhere in the United States, hide or keep at least one individual (Japanese-American, German-American, Jew, German, etc) from being sent to the internment camps or forcibly returned to their Axis country of origin? Anyone?

I am looking for any example of this behavior. We have examples of fighting but I suspect Stray Mutt is right.

The american mormons seem to have been so conditioned to obedience that none were willing to put the welfare of their fellow man above obedience to an unjust law.

It seems like the closer people were to SLC the less inclined they were to do the right thing when obedience offered an easy out.

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Posted by: Whiskey_Tango ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 07:11PM

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Posted by: John_Lyle ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 07:13PM

Japanese, Germans and Italians were all interned. Italians were interned in Canada, as well...

Enemy aliens - mostly Italians and Japanese - that the government was worried about were interred at Ft. Missoula in Montana. The Tule Lake camp in CA held Japanese who wouldn't sign the pledge to support the US. Supposedly, the Tule Lake Japanese internees were to be de-naturalized and deported to Japan after the war.

George Takei, (Lt. Sulu on Star Trek), talks about being interned at the Tule Lake Camp in far northern CA in his biography. My ex MIL and her sibs were interned at Manzanaar.

ElderEx - The supreme court did not act on whether the internment in the camps was constitutional until after the end of internment. The internment was ruled to be unconstitutional.

If you want to know more, read "Only What We Could Carry: The Japanese American Internment Experience" by Lawson Fusao Inada. It's a great book, a little dry, but worth it. It describes how the mainline Christian churches helped the internees. I don't recall reading anything about MORmONs.

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 09:51AM

The LDS church has a long history of sucking up to dictators. This is a speech by Monson as he did this with East Germany in an attempt to get missionaries into that place. Ironically, the church then took credit for the wall coming down very shortly after this.

From a post long ago by Substrate:

... I was reminded of a talk Thomas Monson gave in April, 1989, a month before the blockade of the church in Leipzig. Careful to refer to the country as "the German Democratic Republic, and which some erroneously term East Germany," Monson outlined the LDS church's history within that Soviet client state, culminating in an October, 1988 audience "with the head of the nation, even Chairman Erich Honecker. ... We presented to him the statuette First Step, depicting a mother helping her child take its first step toward its father. He was highly pleased with the gift."

Said Monson:

"I began, “Chairman Honecker, at the dedication and open house for the temple in Freiberg, 89,890 of your countrymen stood in line, at times up to four hours, frequently in the rain, that they might see a house of God. In the city of Leipzig, at the dedication of the stake center, 12,000 people attended the open house. In the city of Dresden there were 29,000 visitors; in the city of Zwickau, 5,300. And every week of the year 1,500 to 1,800 people visit the temple grounds in the city of Freiberg. They want to know what we believe. We would like to tell them that we believe in honoring and obeying and sustaining the law of the land. We would like to explain our desire to achieve strong family units. These are but two of our beliefs. We cannot answer questions, and we cannot convey our feelings, because we have no missionary representatives here as we do in other countries. The young men and young women whom we would like to have come to your country as missionary representatives would love your nation and your people. More particularly, they would leave an influence with your people which would be ennobling. Then we would like to see young men and young women from your nation who are members of our Church serve as missionary representatives in many nations, such as in America, in Canada, and in a host of others. They will return better prepared to assume positions of responsibility in your land.”

"Chairman Honecker then spoke for perhaps thirty minutes, describing his objectives and viewpoints and detailing the progress made by his nation. At length, he smiled and addressed me and the group, saying, “We know you. We trust you. We have had experience with you. Your missionary request is approved.”

"My spirit literally soared out of the room. The meeting was concluded. As we left the beautiful government chambers, Elder Russell Nelson turned to me and said, “Notice how the sunshine is penetrating this hall. It’s almost as though our Heavenly Father is saying, ‘I am pleased.’ ”

"The black darkness of night had ended. The bright light of day had dawned. The gospel of Jesus Christ would now be carried to the millions of people in that nation. Their questions concerning the Church will be answered, and the Kingdom of God will go forth.

"As I reflect on these events, my thoughts turn to the Master’s words, “In nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things.” (D&C 59:21.) I confess the hand of God in the miraculous events pertaining to the Church in the German Democratic Republic."

Here's Russell Nelson in 1991:

"The very careful leadership of President Monson, Elder Wirthlin, Elder Asay, Elder Ringger, and other General Authorities engendered a level of earned respect among governmental leaders. They found our members to be upright and honest citizens. Literally, the moral integrity and devout faith of these Saints brought them their temple in Freiberg....

"A momentous event occurred in 1985. A temple was erected in the German Democratic Republic. It was dedicated 29 June 1985 by President Gordon B. Hinckley, whose prayer included this remarkable expression of hope: “May this day long be remembered in the annals of Thy Church. May it be recalled with gratitude and appreciation. May it mark the beginning of a new day of gladness for Thy people.”

"The Lord surely honored that plea. This prayer became a prophetic promise. Now, in retrospect, it is evident that the influence of that temple has been immeasurably great. The spiritual radiation from that temple deserves much credit for the changes that have occurred. This house of the Lord was the pivot point around which all good things subsequently seemed to turn."

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 09:58AM

The government said it was necessary to round up the Japanese, and the Saints said, "Yes, Sir." After all, it's not like they were imprisoning Mormons. That would have been another matter, right?

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Posted by: rutabaga ( )
Date: July 30, 2012 04:42PM

I don't know anything about mormons protecting Japanese from interment camps.

I do know a family who were interned in Heart Mountain, WY. They knew from the buzz in the Japanese community that it was going to happen.

Their Caucasian friends stepped up to do what they could. In this case buying the Japanese families business to hold it until they were released. Other friends kept household goods and valuables to hold. The caucasian friends showed themselves to be true friends by doing this, knowing they could be branded as Jap Lovers.

Anyway my Japanese friends were able to come back to a somewhat normal life. Their business was given back to them, furniture returned, etc. Others weren't so lucky.

If you want to feel really bad about yourself, tour an interment camp. At Manzanar, CA. you can see restored barracks and a museum. Photos of little japanese kids in their majorette outfits, baseball uniforms and George Washington costumes. They were just as big a patriots as anyone else.

Anyway, my friends are pretty matter-of-fact about the whole experience. In their own words, "It could have been a lot worse."

All in all, a bad moment in our history.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2012 04:45PM by rutabaga.

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Posted by: dexmac ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 06:58PM

Well, considering the head of the JCL was Mike Masaoka, who designed the Japanese American internment and considering Masaoka was a MORMON, I'd say it's unlikely that the Mormons ever protected someone from internment.

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 08:21PM

Wow, that's fascinating. He's a pretty controversial figure in the camps. Some think he sold them out. Some revere him.

It would seem consistent for a Mormon to advocate quiet obedience to the government at the cost of personal freedom.

Does anyone know anything more about this? One article says that intermountain Japanese were not interred.

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Posted by: bingoe4 ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 07:41PM

I read a story in the Ensign on my mission. It was a bout a German mormon soldier not killing an American mormon soldier because he was mormon. My missionary companion thought I was horrible when i said my loyalty would be to my country over some enemy fellow church member.

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 09:53PM

Given the nature of combat, I find any story about two Mormon soldiers from opposing countries recognizing each other to be doubtful, and most likely made up.

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 09:51PM

As shameful as the internment up of Japanese-Americans was in our history, I don't think there was a lot of pressure to hide anyone. The Japanese knew that as bad as they were being treated, it still beat hiding in someones crawl space for however many years the war lasted. It wasn't like Europe, where the Germans were putting people they didn't like into gas chambers.

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Posted by: notsurewhattothink ( )
Date: September 10, 2012 09:54PM

Sorry, my input is to the contrary

I have a couple of really close Japanese American friends whose mothers and fathers were interned. I've done a bit of research on the subject myself, but haven't found any supporting evidence.

The closest thing I know of (my source has since passed away) is that there were some sympathetic people who helped them leave the country out of the ports in California, but it wasn't like Germany where if you were caught you were done for. These escapes were done in broad daylight peacefully.

Also, I had a Japanese neighbor (old man, probably also has since died) and he told me stories about how the neighbors were all resistant to having a "Jap" in their neighborhood and wouldn't allow him to buy a house. So, the place he lived was the first place that didn't have any people deny the "Jap" from moving in. A farm. I can't imagine that being in Utah in the 50's that there was a shortage of Mormons.

EDIT: @ElderEx You don't happen to be Japanese American do you? The way you write reminds me of one of my good friends.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2012 10:00PM by notsurewhattothink.

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