Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
WWIII has erupted on FB and it's amusing the hell out of me. I want to join the argument and finally tell off some of these self-righteous people but my wife would kill me.
I'm just glad someone stuck it to them...hehe
Is this happening to y'all on FB?
I'm just glad someone stuck it to them...hehe
Is this happening to y'all on FB?
Is your wife my cousin?
Need more background on this fight. What's it about? What sorts of things are being said?
It's about civil rights vs. religious beliefs.
i'LL HOLD THE BETS.
Can you give dome deets I would love to laugh right now.
Ok. Here is the post that started the main fight. The post is from a friend of both my wife and her cousin. My wife's cousin is a devout zealot who posts offensive things quite often. I'll post a few of the responses and such as well.
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Friend's post: So, this is a post specifically for **** and (Wife's cousin). I contemplated sending this as a message instead, but I’m fairly certain there are other people lurking around that probably need to read it as well.
This one is going to be very long, probably ramble, and decidedly uncomfortable....for you, but I want you to read the whole thing:
the fact that you (or anyone) think that this whole thing is actually about some dickhead with a restaurant and what he decided to say during an interview is indicative of how out of touch with reality you and your ilk are. This incident with Cathy is just the most recent, most public one in a long (and getting longer) string of similar incidents and it has almost nothing to do with what he said, but rather with the millions of dollars that he and his company give to hate groups.
The fact that you continually attempt to bring up the specter of the loss of freedom of speech also shows how woefully uninformed you are about the concept. Not one single person whose worth listening to has cried out for Cathy and his ilk to be silenced, or that it should be illegal for him to say what he wants, or do what he wants. Not one person. Instead, we have called for people who feel the same as us to exercise THEIR freedom of speech, with their actions and their wallets, to show Cathy and his bigoted brethren that we as Americans will not tolerate their hate and intolerance.
But the real issue....the one that actually matters are the REAL lives, of REAL humans that Cathy, people like him, and people like you are damaging.
The real issue is the MILLIONS of innocent children who wake up every day in fear. With self-loathing in their hearts and minds, because they wake up every day feeling like they are some "other"...some thing....some nothing that's not worthy of love. Some second class that isn't deserving of the same rights as others because some group of privileged asshats are convinced that they really are not worthy of equal treatment. These children and teens have to go to school where other little children and other little teens that have been taught that it's ok to "other" someone else because their "god" has showed them the true path and these "others" aren't on that path. They have to walk through their entire day trying to hide something so integral to who they are that no matter how much easier their life would be without it, they have no choice but to carry it with them. They have to hide themselves from everyone they love, their families, their teachers, their friends. They have to live in shame every day because you, and people like you think it's your duty to make sure everyone knows that they're not wanted.
The real issue is the THOUSANDS of these young innocent people who wake up one morning and decide that enough is enough, and they can't take it anymore. the ones that wake up and decide that living one more day in a world that hates them and doesn't want them around isn't worth it. the INNOCENT children, who through no fault of their own, are "others", that kill themselves EVERY day, because your "love for their eternal soul" means that you have to tell them that the very core of their being, their very existence is dirty, and sinful, and shameful.
The real issue is the lucky ones, the ones that make it out of the hell that is being "other" in high school. Because now they get to be "other" in college, where their roommates can video them being themselves in their own rooms. Where their teachers can spout hate at them from a podium. Where they STILL have to live in fear and shame because they're still not wanted.
The real issues are the adults, who STILL, in 2012 have to walk around as second class citizens. Who have to worry about losing their jobs if someone finds out who they are? Who have to worry about their partners, the people they love the most in this world, getting sick and then not being allowed to be at their side as they lay dying in a hospital bed. Those adults that have chosen one person to spend the rest of their life in love and happiness, in devotion to each other, but can't share in the benefits of that union like anyone else. Those adults that are "others", filthy dirty "others", who aren't worthy of basic human civil rights.
A lot of the blame for all of this gets pushed on to the slack jawed hillbillie yokel bigoted fucks, and the bullies. And man do they share a heavy responsibility for all of the hate and damage caused. But the worst and I mean the absolute WORST of the WORST are people like you.
The hillbillies and the bullies are easy. The hillbillies are uneducated asshats that were raised with this hate in their hearts and are too uneducated to know better. And bullies are sociopaths; they can only feel good about themselves by making others feel like shit, so they're at the very least worthy of pity.
But you, you wonderful beautiful people, you're the absolute worst. On the surface you don't come off as a bigot. You seem educated, and you talk about love, and freedoms, and all of that. Except when it comes to this "other". Those dirty little trash people can burn. They’ll get theirs. You’re the most dangerous because YOU'RE the ones that these poor helpless kids are going to look to first, because you SEEM like you MIGHT have a heart. And when they reach out to you, through their misguided assumptions about your true nature, they'll get nothing in return but the same hate as if they had gone straight to one of those assholes with the "god hates fags" signs.
oh, and *****, I know you said you don't stand not he corner with one of those signs, but whether you like it or not, you carry one around in your pocket everywhere you go. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing different between you and one of those crazy bigots standing on the corner yelling their hearts out. You both believe exactly the same thing, that these people, these human beings, are somehow worth less, worthless, dirty, shameful, and disgusting. That they're not the same as you, and therefor don't deserve the same rights as you. I know you'd rather not be associated with the bullies and the sign slingers, but you're the same. Exactly the same, your sign is just smaller.
What I’m about to say is going to sound horrible and harsh, but:
I really do hope that one of your kids grows up and realizes that they're gay. I really do. And not for some karmic retribution or punishment (though, I’m sure I’ll chuckle a bit at the irony), but because it will force you to make a discovery about yourself. About your fundamental being. About what is lurking inside of you.
You will either discover, in one glorious instant that you are, and always have been wrong. that this beautiful child standing before you, saying the words you have dreaded, is still the same child that you loved the second before those words came out of their mouth. That this child still deserves all the same love and affection as they were just one minute prior. That you still wish for them all the happiness and success in their future that you always have. That they do deserve to not be "other", that they are the same, they are people and that they deserve to be happy.
OR
You will find out that you are the worst kind of monster. the kind of dark, hateful human being that can't even wish for their own child to be themselves, the kind of horrible being that will instantly begin to hate their own child, and damn them to eternal punishment in hell, and cast them out of their house and hearts. The kind of true asshole that has no business in this world.
For your sake I hope you find it's the first scenario and not the second.
So now is your time (and anyone else on my friend list that sees this and agrees that the LGBT community are "others" and don't deserve to be humans) to decide to unfriend me, because I’m done letting your posts of hate slide by. It is now a personal mission to comment with shocking truth and reality on every one of them that I see. But don't go out like a coward. Post here and sign your contract to be included on the side of hate and bigotry. Make it known who you really are. It’s time for you to come out of the shadows, because we're at a crossroads.
Look back through the pages of history, you'll see that those that stand on the side of equality and love are the ones that are lauded as heroes, and those that stand with you, on the side of hatred and bigotry are only remembered for their villainy.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 09:39PM by Lost Mystic.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Friend's post: So, this is a post specifically for **** and (Wife's cousin). I contemplated sending this as a message instead, but I’m fairly certain there are other people lurking around that probably need to read it as well.
This one is going to be very long, probably ramble, and decidedly uncomfortable....for you, but I want you to read the whole thing:
the fact that you (or anyone) think that this whole thing is actually about some dickhead with a restaurant and what he decided to say during an interview is indicative of how out of touch with reality you and your ilk are. This incident with Cathy is just the most recent, most public one in a long (and getting longer) string of similar incidents and it has almost nothing to do with what he said, but rather with the millions of dollars that he and his company give to hate groups.
The fact that you continually attempt to bring up the specter of the loss of freedom of speech also shows how woefully uninformed you are about the concept. Not one single person whose worth listening to has cried out for Cathy and his ilk to be silenced, or that it should be illegal for him to say what he wants, or do what he wants. Not one person. Instead, we have called for people who feel the same as us to exercise THEIR freedom of speech, with their actions and their wallets, to show Cathy and his bigoted brethren that we as Americans will not tolerate their hate and intolerance.
But the real issue....the one that actually matters are the REAL lives, of REAL humans that Cathy, people like him, and people like you are damaging.
The real issue is the MILLIONS of innocent children who wake up every day in fear. With self-loathing in their hearts and minds, because they wake up every day feeling like they are some "other"...some thing....some nothing that's not worthy of love. Some second class that isn't deserving of the same rights as others because some group of privileged asshats are convinced that they really are not worthy of equal treatment. These children and teens have to go to school where other little children and other little teens that have been taught that it's ok to "other" someone else because their "god" has showed them the true path and these "others" aren't on that path. They have to walk through their entire day trying to hide something so integral to who they are that no matter how much easier their life would be without it, they have no choice but to carry it with them. They have to hide themselves from everyone they love, their families, their teachers, their friends. They have to live in shame every day because you, and people like you think it's your duty to make sure everyone knows that they're not wanted.
The real issue is the THOUSANDS of these young innocent people who wake up one morning and decide that enough is enough, and they can't take it anymore. the ones that wake up and decide that living one more day in a world that hates them and doesn't want them around isn't worth it. the INNOCENT children, who through no fault of their own, are "others", that kill themselves EVERY day, because your "love for their eternal soul" means that you have to tell them that the very core of their being, their very existence is dirty, and sinful, and shameful.
The real issue is the lucky ones, the ones that make it out of the hell that is being "other" in high school. Because now they get to be "other" in college, where their roommates can video them being themselves in their own rooms. Where their teachers can spout hate at them from a podium. Where they STILL have to live in fear and shame because they're still not wanted.
The real issues are the adults, who STILL, in 2012 have to walk around as second class citizens. Who have to worry about losing their jobs if someone finds out who they are? Who have to worry about their partners, the people they love the most in this world, getting sick and then not being allowed to be at their side as they lay dying in a hospital bed. Those adults that have chosen one person to spend the rest of their life in love and happiness, in devotion to each other, but can't share in the benefits of that union like anyone else. Those adults that are "others", filthy dirty "others", who aren't worthy of basic human civil rights.
A lot of the blame for all of this gets pushed on to the slack jawed hillbillie yokel bigoted fucks, and the bullies. And man do they share a heavy responsibility for all of the hate and damage caused. But the worst and I mean the absolute WORST of the WORST are people like you.
The hillbillies and the bullies are easy. The hillbillies are uneducated asshats that were raised with this hate in their hearts and are too uneducated to know better. And bullies are sociopaths; they can only feel good about themselves by making others feel like shit, so they're at the very least worthy of pity.
But you, you wonderful beautiful people, you're the absolute worst. On the surface you don't come off as a bigot. You seem educated, and you talk about love, and freedoms, and all of that. Except when it comes to this "other". Those dirty little trash people can burn. They’ll get theirs. You’re the most dangerous because YOU'RE the ones that these poor helpless kids are going to look to first, because you SEEM like you MIGHT have a heart. And when they reach out to you, through their misguided assumptions about your true nature, they'll get nothing in return but the same hate as if they had gone straight to one of those assholes with the "god hates fags" signs.
oh, and *****, I know you said you don't stand not he corner with one of those signs, but whether you like it or not, you carry one around in your pocket everywhere you go. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing different between you and one of those crazy bigots standing on the corner yelling their hearts out. You both believe exactly the same thing, that these people, these human beings, are somehow worth less, worthless, dirty, shameful, and disgusting. That they're not the same as you, and therefor don't deserve the same rights as you. I know you'd rather not be associated with the bullies and the sign slingers, but you're the same. Exactly the same, your sign is just smaller.
What I’m about to say is going to sound horrible and harsh, but:
I really do hope that one of your kids grows up and realizes that they're gay. I really do. And not for some karmic retribution or punishment (though, I’m sure I’ll chuckle a bit at the irony), but because it will force you to make a discovery about yourself. About your fundamental being. About what is lurking inside of you.
You will either discover, in one glorious instant that you are, and always have been wrong. that this beautiful child standing before you, saying the words you have dreaded, is still the same child that you loved the second before those words came out of their mouth. That this child still deserves all the same love and affection as they were just one minute prior. That you still wish for them all the happiness and success in their future that you always have. That they do deserve to not be "other", that they are the same, they are people and that they deserve to be happy.
OR
You will find out that you are the worst kind of monster. the kind of dark, hateful human being that can't even wish for their own child to be themselves, the kind of horrible being that will instantly begin to hate their own child, and damn them to eternal punishment in hell, and cast them out of their house and hearts. The kind of true asshole that has no business in this world.
For your sake I hope you find it's the first scenario and not the second.
So now is your time (and anyone else on my friend list that sees this and agrees that the LGBT community are "others" and don't deserve to be humans) to decide to unfriend me, because I’m done letting your posts of hate slide by. It is now a personal mission to comment with shocking truth and reality on every one of them that I see. But don't go out like a coward. Post here and sign your contract to be included on the side of hate and bigotry. Make it known who you really are. It’s time for you to come out of the shadows, because we're at a crossroads.
Look back through the pages of history, you'll see that those that stand on the side of equality and love are the ones that are lauded as heroes, and those that stand with you, on the side of hatred and bigotry are only remembered for their villainy.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 09:39PM by Lost Mystic.
A few responses:
**** Thank you for publicly wounding me...It's a wound that I've obtained in the name of Christ, and I have never experienced that honor until now, so thank you for deepening my relationship with the On
OP: To ***** feel free to play the martyr. But you still have never explained to me what the difference us between your views on lgbt rights and the views of anti-integratiinists during the 50s and 60s.
******: I owe you no explanation, not because I can't, but I simply won't. Unlike you, I can be peaceful and tolerant of your views and walk away. It's me being tolerant of your views and respecting them whereas you feel the need to keep beating me up about it, but if that is what makes you feel superior to me and makes you feel better about yourself, by all means, please continue, but you'll be talking to thin air because I simply don't have to take it. Not once have I been abusive or insulting in all of this. You have been downright hostile and needlessly so.
Wife's Cousin: I remember those days when we were best of friends. You were such a strong catholic and changed so many lives for the better by your example. You knew alot about God and Jesus' teachings. Have you forgotten? Now you are HATING on me and Jen for our decision for not turning our back on all that and the choice to pursue it further!?! I refuse to hate you. I actually have much peace in my heart about this. We are not meant to be friends like we were and I have to protect my feelings and my soul. You were such a special person to me then and you have that part of my life so I will always hold that in my heart.
A different poster: Wow. Really. I am I guess a monster then. My oldest has chosen a different "path" in life and it is not the one I raised her to follow. And I guess since I won't allow my other children around her, I'm a monster. Let homosexuals have civil unions, but leave the beauty of marriage alone.
****: To OP: Well, I guess we should call you "god" since you are so all-knowing and omnipotent and seem to have it all figured out.
OP: i'd prefer for you to call me (name), because i actually exist. listen, i'm talking about things that actually effect real people, in the real world, in real time. every day. people who can't find a job, people who get bullied every day, people who are killing themselves in droves because your religion tells you that they're less than everyone else.
Wife's cousin: whew...the devil is having a field day with facebook. Rights for everyone seems great on the surface but God's and some civil boundaries are there for our own good. How I would love to print my own money and be richer than everyone in the world but that's not the best thing for everyone or my own salvation.
**** Thank you for publicly wounding me...It's a wound that I've obtained in the name of Christ, and I have never experienced that honor until now, so thank you for deepening my relationship with the On
OP: To ***** feel free to play the martyr. But you still have never explained to me what the difference us between your views on lgbt rights and the views of anti-integratiinists during the 50s and 60s.
******: I owe you no explanation, not because I can't, but I simply won't. Unlike you, I can be peaceful and tolerant of your views and walk away. It's me being tolerant of your views and respecting them whereas you feel the need to keep beating me up about it, but if that is what makes you feel superior to me and makes you feel better about yourself, by all means, please continue, but you'll be talking to thin air because I simply don't have to take it. Not once have I been abusive or insulting in all of this. You have been downright hostile and needlessly so.
Wife's Cousin: I remember those days when we were best of friends. You were such a strong catholic and changed so many lives for the better by your example. You knew alot about God and Jesus' teachings. Have you forgotten? Now you are HATING on me and Jen for our decision for not turning our back on all that and the choice to pursue it further!?! I refuse to hate you. I actually have much peace in my heart about this. We are not meant to be friends like we were and I have to protect my feelings and my soul. You were such a special person to me then and you have that part of my life so I will always hold that in my heart.
A different poster: Wow. Really. I am I guess a monster then. My oldest has chosen a different "path" in life and it is not the one I raised her to follow. And I guess since I won't allow my other children around her, I'm a monster. Let homosexuals have civil unions, but leave the beauty of marriage alone.
****: To OP: Well, I guess we should call you "god" since you are so all-knowing and omnipotent and seem to have it all figured out.
OP: i'd prefer for you to call me (name), because i actually exist. listen, i'm talking about things that actually effect real people, in the real world, in real time. every day. people who can't find a job, people who get bullied every day, people who are killing themselves in droves because your religion tells you that they're less than everyone else.
Wife's cousin: whew...the devil is having a field day with facebook. Rights for everyone seems great on the surface but God's and some civil boundaries are there for our own good. How I would love to print my own money and be richer than everyone in the world but that's not the best thing for everyone or my own salvation.
"My oldest has chosen a different "path" in life and it is not the one I raised her to follow. And I guess since I won't allow my other children around her, I'm a monster. Let homosexuals have civil unions, but leave the beauty of marriage alone."
Yup you are a monster lady! she says "let homosexuals have civil unions but leave the "beauty of marriage alone"
well that "beauty" lasts only about half the time...thats really beauty eh?
Yup you are a monster lady! she says "let homosexuals have civil unions but leave the "beauty of marriage alone"
well that "beauty" lasts only about half the time...thats really beauty eh?
I am 53 years old. I read A LOT. And I can truthfully say that I have RARELY read as eloquent a rebuke as that.
Wow!
Wow!
Your comment caused me to slam on the brakes and back up. Good call. Thx.
BcE
BcE
Agreed that that was an incredibly well written response. The fact that it could create a flame war shows just how far off those who read it are.
In the words of Jim Rome, "rack em!" Beautiful, well done!
Wow I thought the chicken who shall not be named made my Facebook go crazy. This is better.
That left me sobbing. It is gut wrenchingly beautiful. I am so tired of fighting for myself since I was a child. You have no idea how it feels to see something like that from someone like the friend of your wife and cousin who could easily sit it all out but doesn't. Eloquent yes, but more, that is real heart. The kind of heart that is unrecognizable to so many, but makes life beautiful for so many more.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 10:16PM by blueorchid.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 10:16PM by blueorchid.
The eloquent post was by a mutual friend of my wife and her cousin. My wife's cousin is the person with bigoted religious posts...not the beautiful post.
I'm always wanting to call her cousin out on her hurtful posts, but my wife would kill me. I already catch hell for disagreeing with her family. The are hardcore zealots. My wife is liberal like me but she puts a muzzle on me around her family.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 10:03PM by Lost Mystic.
I'm always wanting to call her cousin out on her hurtful posts, but my wife would kill me. I already catch hell for disagreeing with her family. The are hardcore zealots. My wife is liberal like me but she puts a muzzle on me around her family.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 10:03PM by Lost Mystic.
Thanks for the correction and thank you for posting that. You wil never know....
I'm sure glad I posted it then!
Hugs to you!!!
Hugs to you!!!
Call the cousin out. Seriously. If I surmise correctly, the cousin is actively harming youth by her/his hateful opinions and beliefs. If you don't speak out, who will?
I won't lie I had to google Cathy+gay rights to figure out what you were talking about. I need to catch up on some current events I guess. I am so glad someone called 'em out!
I find it funny that somebody would post hate speech about gays, then play the victim when they are called out.
One thing I have found about abusers. They try to convince everybody they are the victim. Sheesh! "Thank you for publicly wounding me...It's a wound that I've obtained in the name of Christ"
I almost threw up in my mouth a little when I read that part.
T-Bone
One thing I have found about abusers. They try to convince everybody they are the victim. Sheesh! "Thank you for publicly wounding me...It's a wound that I've obtained in the name of Christ"
I almost threw up in my mouth a little when I read that part.
T-Bone
That's from the "How To Be A Coward And A Bully 101" class.
Wow. The original post was so beautiful.
I wish I had stopped reading before I got to the poster that seems proud of themselves for shunning a child that has 'chosen a different "path" in life and it is not the one I raised her to follow'
What love...
I wish I had stopped reading before I got to the poster that seems proud of themselves for shunning a child that has 'chosen a different "path" in life and it is not the one I raised her to follow'
What love...
That's quite a rebuke. The responses made me wish I could join in the flame war.
The irony of this wasn't lost on me either: "Wife's Cousin: I remember those days when we were best of friends. You were such a strong catholic and changed so many lives for the better by your example. You knew alot about God and Jesus' teachings. Have you forgotten? Now you are HATING on me and Jen for our decision for not turning our back on all that and the choice to pursue it further!?!"
Wait, what? So Jesus taught "As I have loved you, love one another. Except the gays. And the feminists. And people with brown skin. And, well, anyone who's different from yourself. It's okay to hate and exclude them from your little private party. That's cool. God hates fags. And femiminists." Where is that in the Bible? The thing about no sodomy is in Leviticus, which is this ancient Rabbinical law that only Orthodox Jews still follow to the letter. So to base one's Christianity on old Jewish law is to either utterly disregard the passages in the Gospels where Jesus actually says, "Oh yeah. That old Rabbinical law? Trash it. There's only one law now that you have to worry about: As I have loved you, love one another." Or it just demonstrates a complete ignorance or misunderstanding of the Bible. Jesus didn't teach that any one of God's children are less than somehow, and in fact, hung out with theives and prostitutes. Because they NEEDED him.
People are just stupid.
Wait, what? So Jesus taught "As I have loved you, love one another. Except the gays. And the feminists. And people with brown skin. And, well, anyone who's different from yourself. It's okay to hate and exclude them from your little private party. That's cool. God hates fags. And femiminists." Where is that in the Bible? The thing about no sodomy is in Leviticus, which is this ancient Rabbinical law that only Orthodox Jews still follow to the letter. So to base one's Christianity on old Jewish law is to either utterly disregard the passages in the Gospels where Jesus actually says, "Oh yeah. That old Rabbinical law? Trash it. There's only one law now that you have to worry about: As I have loved you, love one another." Or it just demonstrates a complete ignorance or misunderstanding of the Bible. Jesus didn't teach that any one of God's children are less than somehow, and in fact, hung out with theives and prostitutes. Because they NEEDED him.
People are just stupid.
I wish I could like that post! That was awesome!
Your wife would do well to cut her from her life for her own peace of mind. There's no way you can hang around with someone that toxic and not get poisoned.
Too bad it's lost on the people who really need to think about the message.