A few weeks ago, someone said in a closed thread that other people, not associated with Jesus at all or of the same culture, we're teaching the same things that have been attributed to Jesus, even long before he supposedly lived. That his teachings were not new in the least. Except, the poster didn't list any specifics. Who were these people, & where are some links so that I can read more? I'm an atheistic agnostic, so this question comes from an academic standpoint. Yes, I already searched around a bit, but I guess I wasn't putting in the right queries into Google, because I kept getting search results on Peter & Paul.

The golden rule five centuries before Jesus.
http://www.arthuralevinebooks.com/book.asp?bookid=6

Thanks anyway though.

Does anyone know of this? What about Greeks & Romans?

You may be interested in "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. She primarily sticks with the development of the Abrahamic religions but does discuss some of the sources.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CF4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.hitungmundur.multiply.multiplycontent.com%2Fattachment%2F0%2FSch8EAoKCEAAABM2h7I1%2FHistory%2520of%2520God.pdf%3Fkey%3Dhitungmundur%3Ajournal%3A18%26nmid%3D222611821&ei=2hEsUP-CA4H69gTB8YFA&usg=AFQjCNHBLS332hCmW24eaeBw3vhnIWhGPw



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2012 05:17PM by bc.

Suspect teachings of Jesus:

Kirk is better than Picard.

Mustang beats out Camaro and Firebird, unless you can afford a Corvette.

Always carry a little trash bag in your car; if it fills up you can just throw it out the window.

Google search gave me these right off the bat...

Ignited by Anagramy's thread I did a big research on the history of Jesus, Rome, and a long review disagreeing with Ehrman's belief in a historical Jesus motivated as recommendation by a number of Ehrman's followers on this board.

During my research I discovered that a number of people believe that Kemet Egypt had similar stories that appeared to have been hijacked and used in the Jesus Story.
The people who were involved in the Jesus story were well educated and many were Grecian trained writers, and that's where it gets complex.

If you'd like a copy of the full research I'll send it, but I warn you it's an editing nightmare.



That Christianity is based on stolen Kemetic / Egyptian religious philosophy and spirituality, including its rituals and beliefs, reframed in an Aryan image is the subject of the following presentation from Gerald Massey.

You can buy his book or go on line. I'll post some snips from his books.

The author and scholar Gerald Massey, once a Christian Priest, who began investigating the questions that Christianity's origins posed for him found the trail leading to the civilization of Kemet / Egypt. As a consequence Massey became a student and investigator of Ancient Kemet / Egypt, subsequently revealed his findings in four major publications - Books of the Beginnings, (2 vols.), The Natural Genesis (2 vols.), Ancient Egypt the Light of the World (2 vols.) and The Lectures (1 vol.).

Massey over the course of twenty or so years presented information that Christianity was fabricated upon what was stolen from Kemet / Egypt; and that Christianity was in no respect original or from any god.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 01:56PM by dec.

Egyptian - (Began 4,000 BCE)

•The Mysteries
•The Sem, or mythical representations
•The Ritual as the book.of resurrection
•The sayings of Iu or Iu-em-hetep
•Huhi the father in heaven as the eternal, a title of Atum-Ra
•Ra, the holy spirit
•Ra the father of Iu the Su, or son of God, with the hawk or dove as the bird of the holy spirit
•Iu or Horus, the manifesting son of God
•The trinity of Atum (or Osiris) the father, Horus (or Iu) the son, and Ra the holy spirit
•Iu-Su or Iusa, the coming son of Iusaas, who was great with Iusa or Iusu
•The ever-coming Messu or Child as Egyptian

•Horus (or Heru), the Lord by name, as a child
•Isis, the virgin mother of Iu, her Su or son
•The .rst Horus as Child of the Virgin, the second as son of Ra, the father
•The first Horus as the founder, the second as fulfiller for the father
•The two mothers of Child-Horus, Isis and Nephthys, who were two sisters
•Meri or Nut, the mother-heaven The outcast great mother with her seven sons
•Isis taken by Horus in adultery with Sut
•Apt, the crib or manger, by name as the birthplace and mother in one
•Seb, the earth-father, as consort to the virgin Isis
•Seb, the foster-father to Child-Horus
Seb, Isis and Horus, the Kamite holy trinity Christian - (Began 200 BCE)

THE LIE OF JESUS CHRIST THE CURSE THAT IS CHRISTIANITY

•The miracles.
•The parables.
•The Book of Revelation.
•The sayings of Jesus.
•Ihuh, the father in heaven as the eternal.
•God the Holy Ghost.
•God, the Father of Jesus, with the dove as the bird of the Holy Spirit.
•Jesus the manifesting Son of God.

The term son was synonymous with sun notwithstanding the ancient language was not spelled similarly as the english language spelling is similar.

•The Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
•Jesus.
•The Hebrew Messianic Child.
•Child-Jesus as the Lord by name (Gospels of the Infancy).
•Mary the virgin mother of Jesus.
•Jesus as the Virgin's child, the Christ as son of the father.
•Jesus as the founder, and the Christ as fulfiller for the father.
•The two mothers of Child-Jesus, who , were sisters.
•Mary, as Regina Cceli.
•Mary Magdalene, with her seven devils.
•The woman taken in adultery.
•The manger as cradle of the Child Christ.
•Joseph, the father on earth, as putative husband to the Virgin Mary.
•Joseph, as foster-father to the Child
•Jesus.
•Joseph, Mary and Jesus, a Christian holy trinity.

Kemetic / Egyptian Origin of Christianity
Gerald Massey's comparative list of Kemetic / Egyptian (pre-Christian) religious-philosophical data, Christianized in the Canonical Gospels and the Book of Revelation.

Egyptian - (Began 4,000 BCE)

•Seb, the builder of the house, the carpenter
•Seb, the custodian of the mummied dead
•Sut and Horus, the twin opponents
•Horus, the sower, and Sut, the destroyer, in the harvest-field
•Sut and Horus contending in the desert
•Sut and Horus contending on the Ben Ben or pyramidion
•Horus carried off by Sut to the summit of Mount Hetep
•Sut and Horus contending on the mount
•Sut undoing the good that Horus does
•S'men, for Khemen, a title of Taht
•S'men, who held Child-Horus in his arms as the young solar god
•Anna or Annit (a title of Hathor), with Taht-S'men
•The Petar or Petra by name in Egyptian as revealer to Horus
•The house in Annu
•The group in the house at Annu
•Horus in Annu
•Asar or Osiris
•The two sisters Mertae
•Osiris, whom Horus loved
•Osiris perfumed for his burial
•Osiris prays that he may be buried speedily
•Osiris prepared for burial under the hair of Hathor-Meri
•Osiris, who slept in the tomb at Annu
•Osiris raised from the tomb by Horus in Annu
•The mummy Osiris bidden to come forth by Horus
•The Great One who does the work of washing
•The star, as announcer for the Child Horus
•The seven Hathors (or cows) who minister to Horus
•Anup, the Precursor of Horus
•Anup, the Baptizer
•Aan, the saluter of Horus
•Aan, a name of the divine scribe
•Hermes, the scribe
•Mati, the registrar
•Taht, Shu, and black Sut
•Nut at the pool of the Persea, or sycamore-tree, as giver of divine drink
•Horus born in Annu, the place of bread
•The vesture put on Horus by the Goddess Tait

THE LIE
Christian - (Began 200 BCE)

•Joseph, the carpenter.
•Joseph of Arimathea, the keeper of the Corpus Christi.
•Satan and Jesus, the twin opponents.
•Jesus, the sower of the good seed, and Satan, the sower of tares.
•Satan and Jesus contending in the wilderness.
•Satan and Jesus contending on the pinnacle.
•Jesus spirited away by Satan into an exceeding high mountain.
•Satan and Jesus contending on the mount.
•Satan sowing tares by night.
•Simeon.
•Simeon, who took the Child-Jesus in his arms.
•Anna, the prophetess, with Simeon.
•Peter, the revealer to the Christ.
•Bethany.
•The group in the house at Bethany.
•Jesus in Bethany.
•Lazarus.
•The two sisters Mary and Martha.
•Lazarus, whom Jesus loved.
•Jesus anointed, when the odour fills the house.
•Jesus begs that his death may be effected quickly.
•Jesus prepared for his burial beneath the hair of Mary.
•Lazarus, who slept in the tomb at Bethany.
•Lazarus raised from the tomb by Jesus in Bethany.
•The mummy Lazarus bidden to come forth by Jesus.
•Jesus washing the feet of his disciples.
•The Star in the East that indicated the birthplace of Jesus.
•The seven women who minister to Jesus.
•John, the forerunner of Jesus the Christ.
•John the Baptist.
•John, the saluter of the Christ.
•John, the divine scribe.
•Hermas, the scribe.
•Matthew, the clerk.
•The three kings, or Magi.
•The woman at the well as giver of the water.
•Jesus born in Bethlehem, the house of bread.
•The swaddling clothes put on the infant Jesus.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 02:17AM by dec.

If there was a "historic" Jesus, we have no idea which, if any, teachings attributed to him were actually said by him.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If there was a "historic" Jesus, we have no idea
> which, if any, teachings attributed to him were
> actually said by him.

This is always my thought about it. I keep reading that scholars feel that Mark was the first of the gospels written and they attribute it to well after Jesus' death.

There is no mention of a scribe following Jesus around, recording everything he said. So how can anything supposedly said by him actually be attributed to him?

If you read the Gospels where he's supposedly talking, it's as if he was saying that line at the time it was written. How do they know exactly what he said many years after the events?

There are some vague references in some of the Gnostic gospels about "the Sayings of Jesus."

And with Mark being the first written, Luke, and Matthew having things borrowed from Mark - it seems more likely that those things that were borrowed from Mark are closer to the original "Sayings of Jesus."

But that document has not been found.

And, again, it's more about probabilities than a pure factual statement of "Jesus said X and we all know for sure that he did."

What's very interesting though is that all of the "sayings of Jesus" that are more likely to be what he actually said have NOTHING to do with him being divine.

They were more about: repent, be good, don't be such nitpickers over the Mosaic law, and get ready to have your butts kicked by the Son of Man.

Kemetic / Egyptian Origin of Christianity
Gerald Massey's comparative list of Kemetic / Egyptian (pre-Christian) religious-philosophical data, Christianized in the Canonical Gospels and the Book of Revelation.

Egyptian - (Began 4,000 BCE)
•Offerings made to the child by the worshipers in Annu
•Child Horus with the head of Ra
•The Bull of Amenta in the place of birth

•The lions of the horizon attending upon Horus
•Child Horus emerging
•Papyrus-reed
•Horus, the ancient child
•Horus, the gracious child
•Horus, one of five brethren
•Horus, the brother of Sut the betrayer
•Amsta, the one brother of Horus in the human form
•The two sisters of Horus
•Horus the lad in the country and youth in town
•Horus baptized with water by Anup
Horus in flame
•Horus in his baptism becoming the beloved Son of God the Father
•Horus the Good Shepherd, with the staff upon his shoulder
•Horus with the four followers in the Mount
•Horus with the seven great spirits in the Mount
•Isis commanded to take her child down into Egypt for safety
•Horus as the typical fish
•Horus as the fisher
•The four fishers with Horus as founders of the kingdom
•Sebek, the father of the fishers
•Two fisher-brethren, Kabhsenuf and Hapi
•Two other fisher-brethren, Amsta and Tuamutef.
•The seven on board the bark with Horus
•The wonderful net of the fishers
•Horus as the lamb
•Horus as the lion
•Horus (Iu) as the black child
•Horus as Ahi, the striker with the flabellum
•Horus identified with the Tat or Cross
•The blind Horus, in two characters, as the God and Manes
•Horus of twelve years
•Horus made a man of thirty years in his baptism


THE LIE
Christian - (Began 200 BCE)
•Offerings and worship of the Magi.
•Child-Jesus with the solar glory round his head.
•The ox in the birthplace of the Child.
•The ass in the birthplace (catacombs).
•The lions attending the Child-Christ (pseudo-Matthew).
•The Child-Jesus in the catacombs issuing from the Papyrus.
•The little old Jesus in the catacombs.
•Jesus, the child full of grace.
•Jesus, one of five brothers.
•Jesus, the brother of Judas the betrayer.
•James, the human brother of Jesus.
•The sisters of Jesus.
•Jesus as the child in the country and youth in town.
•Jesus baptized with water by John.
•Jesus the baptizer with fire.
•Jesus becoming the Son of God the Father in his baptism.
•Christ coming with the fan in his hand.
•Jesus the Good Shepherd, with the lamb or kid upon his shoulder.
•Jesus with the four disciples in the Mount.
•Jesus with the seven spirits in the Mount (Rev.).
•Herod, the murderer of the innocents.
•Mary warned to take her Child down into Egypt for safety.
•Jesus as Ichthus the fish.
•Jesus as the fisher.
•The four fishers with Jesus as founders of the kingdom.
•Zebedee, the father of the fishers.
•Two fisher-brethren, Simon and Andrew.
•Two other fisher-brethren, James and John.
•The seven fishers on board the bark with Jesus.
•The miraculous draught of fishes in the net.
•Jesus as the lamb.
•Jesus as a lion.
•Jesus as the little black bambino.
•Jesus wielding the scourge of cords as the striker.
•Jesus identified with the Cross.
•The two blind men of the Gospels.
•Jesus of twelve years.
•Jesus, the man of thirty years in his baptism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 02:07AM by dec.

Kemetic Religious Philosophy and Spirituality - The Way Of Life
The term "Kemetic Religious Philosophy and Spirituality" is somewhat of a misnomer and is better described as the "Way of Life"; as such, the Kemetic 'Way of Life' was/is a systematic approach to engendering 'optimal life' - providing food, resources and comfort - for everyone and everything. The 'Way of Life' had/has as its primary objective creating and sharing abundance and prosperity, and perpetuating creation, civilization and community by maintaining and adhering to 'cosmic order' and 'moral order'.
Cosmic Order - includes all of creation - was established by Atum (Ptah, Amen) the creator, and maintained by the 'Elements' Ntcheru - Ra, Nu, Shu, Nut, Geb, Maat, Neb-Het, Ausar, and Auset. Our essential responsibility to the Creator and the Elements Ntcheru is to respect the Cosmic Order and its 'Way of Life', and make no offense against it - therefore, we should not polute air or water, destroy by fire or buring, extinguish any life form engendered by the Creator, nor seek to engender a life-form other than by the Creator.

'Moral Order' includes the Earth Domain - was established by Ntcher Ausar - the 'Earth Sovereign'. His creed is that we collectively generate and share abundance, speak and do truth, and elevate the lives of each other.
In short, the Way of Life, has as its primary objective the Perpetuation of Life - by way of relationships that elevate life.

The Ntcheru - The Life Forces of Creation
The Creator, Elements Ntcheru, Principals Ntcheru, Ntcher-Incarnate (deified leader), Deified Ancestors, and Ancestors govern the Way of Life. The Creator Atum (or Ptah) created itself, therefore initiating the process of creation.
The Elements Ntcheruu, the life-forces that sustain creation followed - Shu (air), Neb-Het (atmosphere), Nu (water), Nut (Sky), Geb (earth), Ra (sun), Ausar (flora and fauna [food]), Auset (flora and fauna [food]), Het-Heru (minerals), and Set (metals). The Creator and the Elements Ntcheru, also known collectively as the 'Higher Ennead', govern the Cosmic Order. The Cosmic Order is what we observe as the universe - its cycles, expansions (unfolding), generated forms, etc.
The Principal Ntcheru, the life-forces that govern 'Moral Order' (including human behavior), followed the Elements Ntcheru - they include Ausar (the embodiment of government and the 'Living Word' - i.e. Moral Law), Auset (the 'seat' [embodiment] of government, unity, obligation, bonding), Heru (the force of truth - persuasion and coercion), Maat (Cosmic and Moral order and balance), Tehuti (communication and knowledge), Het-Heru (embodiment and protector of the society/state). The Principal Ntcheru, known collectively as the 'Lower Ennead' govern the 'Earth Domain' lead by Ntcher Ausar who is the 'Earth Sovereign'. Ntcher Ausar and the Lower Ennead set the laws and standards - 'Moral Order' that we are to adhere to; by doing so we are shown the way to abundance and prosperity in this lifetime, and immortality in the next lifetime. It we do not adhere to the 'Moral Order' we are doomed to impoverishment and ultimate death.

Next is the Nsut Bit (the Leader, Deity Incarnate), the 'earthly' embodiment of Cosmic Leadership as the 'Son-of-the-Sun', and as Moral Leadership the embodiment of Ntcher Ausar. In his/her capacity the Nsut Bit (Leader) is a Ntcher who has the responsibility to guide the society in generating abundance and prosperity, and guides the society in maintaining Cosmic and Moral Order. The Nsut Bit is party to the 'Lower Ennead'.
Next are the Deified Ancestors - these are individuals whose contribution to society, in the areas of abundance and prosperity and moral and cosmic responsibility, has been so profound that they have been elevated to the status of a Ntcher (Neter, Nature). Deified Ancestors, have authority and capabilities in there respective areas for which they have contributed and can be propitiated for their beneficence.

The Ancestors, 'those worthy of living forever', perpetuate the 'breath of life' that emanates from Atum (the Creator); it is through them that we inherit civilization and community (including family). Ancestors are honored for their contribution to the perpetuation of creation; they have the capacity to impact the affairs of human beings in the way of good. Following are 'Those Present' - that is you and I (addressed below). Following us are the 'Future Born'. To the 'Future Born' we have the obligation to provide a world of abundance, prosperity, and cosmic and moral order. To the 'Future Born' we may inform them of what is needed to improve the human condition that they may come with the capacity to affect what is needed.

The Cosmic and Moral Leadership in summary: Creator (Atum, Ptah, Amen) > Elements Ntcheru: Ra (sun), Nu (water), Shu (air), Nut (sky), Neb-Het (atmosphere), Geb (earth) > Principal Ntcheru: Ausar (government, law), Auset (government, unity, organization), Heru (force of truth), Maat (Cosmic and Moral Order), Tehuti (communication and knowledge) > Nsut Bit (Deified Leader) > Deified Ancestors > Ancestors > Those Present > Those Future.

Your and My Responsibility to Creation, Civilization and Community (Society)
Creation
Upon initiating creation Ntcher Atum created Ntcheru Shu (eternity) and Neb-Het (everlastingness), in so doing the creator intended for 'Life' and 'Cosmic Order' to continue forever. It is in this light that we have an obligation to not offend either. We have the responsibility to engender life-creating and life-sustaining relationships with all living things; in short our responsibility it to 'Optimal Living'. In such a world 'Life' is the yardstick by which all relationships are measured: The question is asked: Is this relationship life-creating and life-sustaining? If the relationship it is we embrace it, if it is not we reject it. Furthermore, it is for us to understand that all life emanates from Atum and is therefore related - either as a progenitor, sibling, or descendent; nevertheless, we are responsible to care for our relatives to the highest degree - be it an Ant or a Deer, a Whale or a Human Being.
We are responsible to adhere to the Cosmic Order, which engenders life. Therefore the extermination of life is an abomination against creation. Additionally, the threat of extermination of life by way of genocide, pogroms, bombs, nuclear weapons, poisons, or other means is an offense against Life and Cosmic Order and is therefore, an offense against Atum and Creation. As adherents to Cosmic and Moral Order we are compelled take neutralizing action those who engender and perpetuate such an offense (see below).

Civilization
Ntcher Ausar is the Earth Sovereign to whom we are obligated; he governs the Earth Domain and has set it laws. Ntcher Ausar introduced agriculture (i.e. food in abundance) and the elements of civilization - including science, arts, writing, building, commerce, etc. In doing so we were given the instruction to share abundance and prosperity. Prior to agriculture the majority of people were Hunter-Gathers with close to an impoverished lifestyle, except for those in pastoral and fishing communities. With Ntcher Ausar becoming the Earth Sovereign and introducing agriculture and a new faith, he introduced the foundation by which the world was able advance to prosperity. With the admonition to share abundance and prosperity, the Ausarian Faith was diffused worldwide via the introduction of agriculture (abundant food), and the elements of civilization; hence, all of the major ancient societies, including Sumer, Hatti, Indus, Shang, Olmec, Ugarit, Canaan, among others were engendered from the embrace of the Ausarian Faith. The Faith was introduced to each population via the gift of food, unity, and knowledge. The Ausarian Faith was diffused through peaceful means and with the only obligation being that of adhering to the Cosmic and Moral Order and that of 'sharing abundance and prosperity'.

Community / Society
Society is governed by the Nsut Bit, Seba, and Ancestors. The Nsut Bit as the Leader is the embodiment of Cosmic Order and Moral Order; his/her responsibility is to maintain both and to engender and maintain abundance and prosperity of the society. His/her word is 'sacred' - hence, Mdw Ntr (see below). The Nsut Bit, the standard (symbol), instructs and guides the society in the 'Way Of Creation'. The Seba, on behalf of the Ntcheru and Nsut Bit, administer to the 'knowledge, rituals and beliefs' that establish and maintain Right and Truth - Cosmic and Moral Order within the Earth Domain. The Ancestors continue to benefit humanity by way of propitiation (prayers), supplication (offerings) and celebration (remembrance). Our responsibility is to follow the instructions and guidance of the Nsut Bit (the Leader), Seba, and the example of the Ancestors.

The Faiths
The African / Kemetic Faiths
The Kemetic Faith
The Kemetic Faith is a 'body of knowledge, rituals and beliefs' put in action to achieve 'Optimal Life' for everyone and everything. The Faith is composed of several 'expressions of emphasis' (divisions and branches) - including the Ausarian Faith, Tenetian Faith, Ra (Solar) Faith, Sacred Mother Faith, Ancestor Faith, Bes Faith, Min Faith (Sacred Fish), etc.

The Kemetic Faith derives from much older African faiths - Sacred Mother, Sacred Cow, Bes Faith, Solar Faith, Sacred Fish Faith, etc. The Kemetic Faith in essence introduced the 'Third World Order' (the Third Word ) in the embodiment and deeds of Ntcher Ausar, who introduced agriculture and the elements of civilization to humanity. Referred to here as Kemet Way or the Ausarian Faith, it is this faith that revolutionized humanities existence with the provision of food, resources and comfort in abundance via the agricultural-based faith.

The Ausarian Faith
The Ausarian Faith is an agricultural-based faith introduced by Ausar, which initiated the transition from hunter-gatherer, pastoral, nomadic, and fishing societies and economies to a more prosperous one founded on agriculture. The Ausarian Faith facilitated disparate communities uniting into villages and city/states, administered by a central government, from centrally established institutions (temples). The Ausarian Faith introduced writing (Mdw Ntr), the annual (365-day) calendar, the city/state/nation, etc The Ausarian Faith, with the sanction of the Ennead - both Higher Ennead and Lower Ennead - ushered in a new 'world order' on Earth - i.e. a transition from dependency on the Elements Ntcheru, to that of human empowerment to produce for self and 'human responsibility'. In the Ausarian Faith, Ausar and the agricultural-base economy take precedence, however, the faith includes the Sacred Mother Faith - represented by Ntcher Auset, and Ntcher Het-Heru; the Sacred Cow Faith, in which animal husbandry is the primary force of the economy - represented by Ntcher Het-Heru and to a lesser extent Ntcheru Ausar (Royal Bull) and Ntcher Auset (Royal Cow); the (Solar) Faith - represented by Ntcher Ra, and Ntcher Anu; the Sacred Fish Faith - represented by Ntcher Min and Ntcher Ausar (Sacred Fish). The Ausarian Faith includes the Ancestor Faiths among others. Each faith has it associated 'body of knowledge, rituals and beliefs'. The Faiths are not contradictory nor in conflict with each other.

Tenetian Faith
The Tenetian Faith is an animal husbandry based faith; it is derived from the Faith Of The Sacred Cow. The Faith of the Sacred Cow is one of the oldest African Faiths; it marks the transition of humanity from solely hunter-gatherers to include that of herding (pastoral) societies. The Sacred Cow Faith existed from Africa to China as a united faith. It was diffused throughout the ancient world by the Anu of inner-Africa. Under the Sacred Cow Faith communities of the ancient world co-existed within their respective territories. The communities engaged in enlarging the herds (the source of food and wealth), trading goods and services, collective defense against invaders and poachers. The Tenetian Faith held animal husbandry to be the primary force in the economy. In the Tenetian Faith the Ntcher Tena (Sacred Cow) - the female principle - is the preeminent Ntcher of the faith. In the Tenetian Faith, Ntcher Tena and the animal husbandry-based economy take precedence, however, the faith includes the Ausarian Faith - agriculture as the secondary force of the economy - represented by Ntcher Ntcheru Ausar (Royal Bull) and Ntcher Auset (Royal Cow); the (Solar) Faith - represented by Ntcher Ra, and Ntcher Anu; the Sacred Fish Faith - represented by Ntcher Min and Ntcher Ausar (Sacred Fish). The Tenetian Faith includes the Ancestor Faiths among others. Each faith has it associated 'body of knowledge, rituals and beliefs'. The Faiths are not contradictory nor in conflict with each other. The Sacred Cow Faith was diffused throughout Eurasia and lead by the Tuata-Tenen of Kemet (also known as the Libyans) - hence the Faith is being called the Tenetian Faith. The Tuata-Tenen established the Faith throughout the Mediterranean - including Minoan Crete, and Mycenae - from Western Europe to Russia, to throughout Asia Minor and Asia.

Solar Faith
The Solar Faith, in celebration and deference to creative and nurturing power of the sun, is a very ancient faith that originates from the times when our ancestors were solely hunter-gatherers. During this time our Ancestors viewed the Sun (Ra, Anu) as the creator, who was celebrated for bringing the light that liberated them from vulnerability during the darkness, brought warmth, engendered growth in plants, and good feelings among the people. Ra (in Kemet) and Anu, most everywhere else, are also celebrated as the preeminent Ntcher governing the cosmos-from above Earth to below the abode of Atum / Amen - i.e. Amenta. The Solar Faith is the faith of the 'Spiritual Resurrection'.

Ancestor Faith
The Ancestor Faith is not only universal in the Kemetic Faith but in all African Faiths; it celebrates the spiritual immortality of those who have come and gone; who have contributed to our quality of life; yet, more specifically to our genealogy. Our Ancestors perpetuated the first breath and utterance of Atum to us in both our very own breath and in our utterances that perpetuate creation. The Ancestor Faith is our connection to before.

Sacred Mother Faith
The Faith of the Sacred Mother dates to before twenty-five thousands B.C. The iconography of the Ntcher depicts her a voluptuous female of large breast, buttocks, and stomach, with curled or knotted hair. This faith celebrates life and creation - including the mysterious birth of human beings, and the female generative principle in creating and sustaining life. An outstanding element is the geographic breath of this faith - stretching from south and west Africa, east to China and the Pacific Islands, north of Africa in to Europe (west to France and east to Russia). In other words, African people, in spite of migrating thousands of miles apart remained unified by this faith. Additionally, the Faith of the Sacred Mother was retained in Ancient Kemet by way of the Ntcher Het-Heru (the Sacred Cow), who was also portrayed with the rotund body of the Sacred Mother and the head of a Cow.

Faith of the Sacred Cow/Bull
The 'Faith of the Sacred Cow / Bull' derives from the days of our hunter-gathering Ancestors who learned to herd animals and their eventual domestication of them. Goats, Lamb, and cows provided enough food to feed groups; with the advent of herding our Ancestors were able to ensure a ready and plentiful food supply. It is in this light that the spirit of the Sacred Cow / Bull came to be revered. In this faith status of, and within, the society was measured by the health and size of the herd.
The 'Faith of the Sacred Cow / Bull' was diffused throughout the ancient world; its impact included a greater supply of food, sedentary, and semi-sedentary lifestyle, increased population growth, the beginning of stone building, and sedentary related crafts - like pottery making.
During the Kemetic Era, the Faith of the Sacred Cow was continued in the celebration of Het-Heru and Ausar (Ausarian Faith), and Tenen and Tenen-T (Tenetian Faith). Adherents of the Tenetian Faith are principally responsible for the diffusion, organization and leadership of the faith (during the Dynastic Era) outside of Kemet - it is they who introduced the faith throughout the Mediterranean (including Minoan and Mycenae), Europe (including Ireland and the British Isles), and throughout Asia (including Indus and Shang societies).

The Faith of Set - Faith of the Hunters
The 'Faith of Set' is mentioned here because his faith is important, though it is greatly misunderstood. Ntcher Set, founder of metallurgy and metal-working, is a predynastic Ntcher associated with metal weapons and hunting; therefore in the hunting (and gathering) society he was preeminent. In the hunter-gathering society, the hunter held status by way of his weapon - its efficacy in hunting, fighting and defence; in this society a great warrior-hunter was revered, and granted superior status. The adoption of the Pastoral or Agricultural society challenged the place and status of the hunter-warrior. It is this, Predynastic, challenge for world sovereignty, that characterized the battle between Ausar/Heru (Ausarian Faith - agriculture) and Set (hunter-gatherer).


^^^
A snip of his volumes of work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 02:09AM by dec.

Gerald Massey was a poet who educated himself in Egyptology. His views have been debunked .Here is a snippet from a Wiki article about him. Achyra S thinks he was great though LOL. Sorry, but he pulled this stuff from his hinny.




[edit] Claimed parallels between Horus and Jesus

One of the more sensational aspects of Massey's writings were the parallels he drew between the Christian god Jesus of Nazareth and the Egyptian god Horus. These comparisons are primarily contained in his book The Natural Genesis. Massey's writings on this subject have influenced various later authors such as Alvin Boyd Kuhn, Tom Harpur, and Acharya S.[5]

Some of the similarities that Massey claimed existed are that they both
1.Were born of virgins on December 25
2.Taught in a temple as a child at age 12
3.Were teachers who had 12 Disciples
4.Were baptized in a river
5.Gave a sermon on the mount
6.Healed the sick
7.Raised men from the dead (El-Asar-Us for Horus, Lazarus for Jesus)
8.Died by crucifixion
9.Were resurrected three days later.[6]

W. Ward Gasque conducted a world-wide poll of twenty Egyptologists - including Professor Kenneth Kitchen of the University of Liverpool and Ron Leprohan, Professor of Egyptology at the University of Toronto - in Canada, US, UK, Australia, Germany, and Austria to verify if there was any academic support for these claims. The scholars were unanimous in dismissing them. [7]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 03:52AM by bona dea.

He was also one of the sources for "Zeitgeist" which to put it politely is filled with misinformation and made up "facts". Serious scholars have debunked it many times.

That's interesting.
There were lots of teachings prior to, and after the Jesus era, that resembled snippets of the Jesus storyline.
In this way it's not too unlike the many various ideas that floated around during Smiths era, as he took snippets of many of them to concoct his own hybrid. (noticing the similarities there.)

Was Bart Ehrman listed as one of the scholars? Probably not since he's not an egyptologist.
You know what I think of him! Ehrman pulled his book historical jesus from somewhere deep in his colon.

on the other hand, there are snippets of Ehrmans info that has truth to it.

We know for a fact that many old religions were a hybrid of various others to make the new ideas more palatable.
Interesting, not long ago I saw a very old Catholic picture of black baby Jesus and wondered how that connected to the various borrowed concepts.

Yes, Acharya has a lot of similar info and is claimed to be a certified scholar, although I'm not sure if she's an egyptologist. Some of her info has a few recognizable flaws in it, but on the whole more truth than errors from what I saw.

Some bits of zeitgeist can be criticized with flaws but a lot of it cannot.

As is also the problem with mormonism it seems, there is some truth and some errors mixed with out-right lies. This is always a challenge in any area. The fortunate thing about mormonism is that it's closer to our time era and it's still challenging to parse out the lies.

I'd like to see a panel of the top egyptologists do a chapter by chapter review on Acharaya as I'm more familiar with her than Massey.
Actually, I should specify that I'm not familiar with Massey at all, only noticed him when I began looking at different beliefs from bce to 300 ce. and offered up various views pro and con based on what I could find and Massey was one of them. There are a lot more that I didn't have time to research and then lost interest. If it's a christian egyptologist it might be biased. And don't even start with the "Ehrman is an agnostic crap again!!" I'm still mad at you for that for the year back in 2003 when you sounded like you were my friend coming to my defense when I was confronting my Jesus beliefs on this board way back when, only to find out it's YOUR crap you were defending, not mine at all!

I don't know how much of Massey's info is flawed and how much is accurate. Should we throw out the baby with the bathwater?
:)

I know I threw out Ehrmans baby and bathwater, but should we do the same with Massey's or Acharayas?

From what I have experienced you have a deep interest in maintaining some form of a historical Jesus. Do you think that colors your, and others, interpretations?



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 01:54PM by dec.

No,y interest his historical not religious. You can say the same for most scholars and they could make more money with a senastionlist book saying Jesus is myth.

I don't understand your antipathy to Ehrman, but so be it. He is a scholar and Achyra S and Massey are not. Since Ehrman is not an Egyptologist, I doubt he was one of the scholars consulted, but the fact remains that they all said Massey was full of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 05:39PM by bona dea.

BTW, I have no idea what I did to make you angry years ago and whether you believe it or not, Ehrman is an agnostic.

@Dec

Ra: Often pictured with a hawk's head, a solar disk, a beetle's head on a man's body, or a ram's head. He rarely looked -- like -- ya' know -- a human being. He is also pictured as a beetle, snake, cat, bull -- the list goes on and on. Historians wonder if he was associated with, related to bull worship. So there ya' go! That proves there is a lot of bull going around!

Jesus: He just looks like a regular guy -- it is so boring, man. (You are bogarting that joint!)

Ra: In one telling, Ra cries, and man springs from his tears.

Jesus: Nothing really springs to mind here. Maybe if we stretch, fold, and wrinkle the material enough, we can mold it into some shape just like the above! (And pass that joint over here!) Oh! Oh! I know! Jesus wept on the cross -- and from that -- uhm -- I need some help here! But how about -- Both Ra and Jesus wept. That'll show 'em!

Ra: Sailed through the sky in boats. Or sometimes he was a bird. In some tellings, a snake threatened to stop the boat with its hypnotic stare.

Jesus: A snake plays a big role in the Bible, too, although we don't really know how Jesus felt about the Old Testament...

Birth of Ra: In some stories, he came out of an egg on the water and became the sun, which is sort of like being born of a human woman who was magically impregnated by god. Okay. It's not like it at all. Just smoke some more dope, and you will see the likeness -- almost magically!

Okay. Ra isn't working for me. No smoke is that powerful! Let's go with Horus! We can hammer that into something!

Horus: There are different versions. In one his wife, Hathor, who is a goddess, is sometimes his mother -- which -- ya' know, is totally like the Jesus story, man! Damn! She a goddess -- not a virgin! Oh well -- he he he -- like people will get it or call me on it! So now -- You Did It With Your Sister becomes LIKE A VIRGIN, MAN!

Horus continued: So let's look at another story. Here Horus the son of Isis. She's a goddess, too! Her tears made the Nile flood -- and you know -- like -- Mary took Jesus to Egypt -- so there ya' go!

Jesus: It's getting to be a drag how ordinary his tale. The Egyptians -- now they were some storytellers! Jesus' mom is always human. Man, that is uninteresting!

Horus' birth continued: One version is that his mother married her brother -- WHICH IS JUST LIKE BEING A VIRGIN IN ANYONE'S BOOK!

My personal favorite? Isis' husband is murdered (which means, of course, SHE GETS HER VIRGINITY BACK!) Isis sort of assembles his body parts. She has sex with the severed penis -- WHICH IS JUST LIKE BEING A VIRGIN, MAN! -- and conceives Horus. In one version, Isis dismembers her murdered husband except for his penis. This is thrown into the Nile and becomes a catfish. Isis -- who is, by the way, way cooler than Mary, resurrects her husband and makes a gold phallus which she uses to get pregnant -- WHICH IS JUST LIKE BEING A VIRGIN, MAN! And Jesus said "I will make you fishers of men." So FISHERMEN = CATFISH!

Jesus: Ordinary woman gets pregnant. Blah blah blah. Travels around swollen and saintly with an ORDINARY GUY FOR A HUSBAND. But here's the part just like the Horus story -- ANGELS! Okay. There aren't any angels in the Horus story -- I'm just ribbing ya'! So roll another joint already. But Jesus' mother did get pregnant by god, which is sort of similar -- if you squinsh up your eyes. And get busy rolling that joint!

Horus: He had that falcon head, too.

Jesus: Hmm -- maybe someone, somewhere in history, at sometime made up something about a falcon and Jesus. That will have to do.

The great thing here -- they were all a bunch of virgins! And ya' know -- like so weird how much it is like the Bible!

But then I learned to read anything Egyptian from Joseph Smith. He translated Egyptians symbols almost as good as me! He taught me -- just make up whatever you like and tell people -- oh -- it's REFORMED Egyptian. That's why you don't get it so good.

And ya' know -- the smoke helps SO PASS THAT JOINT MY WAY!

LOL, that sums up the reasoning of the mythicists pretty well.Then there are all the stuff they make up about the Egyptian gods that only they know about. It boggles the mind.

I shared my own experience of awakening to the reality of the metamorphosis of Jesus from an enlightened master to a myth.

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus actually lived; however, his life has been co-opted and edited by the politically powerful just as we see the same group doing with Joseph Smith's life, his photograph, the circumstances of his death.

My first eye-opener was from Joseph Campbell's "The POwer of Myth." I had no idea humans want so badly to believe in a savior, a virgin birth, a deluge, a Gilgamesh, a Jesus. These ideas are so compelling that we as a society tend to force our public figures into the familiar templates--the Cinderella, the Snow White, the Pinocchio. Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" demonstrates the recreation of these legendary figures over and over in each civilization that arises.

I read Deepok Chopra's "The Third Christ" and became acquainted with the idea that some of Christ's teachings are coherent with his philosophy that the kingdom of god is within us, while others contradict that. Shown side by side, it is relatively easy to pick out the authentic ANTI-CHURCH-ESTABLISHMENT teachings of Jesus and identify the PRO-BIG-CHURCH-ORGANIZATION statements that were added later by church leaders to strengthen their position and their policies. Such as "whatever you forgive on earth will be forgiven in heaven."

Then I learned from recent studies that Paul from the New Testament did not know anything about a virgin birth, childhood miracles, star in Bethlehem, none of the traditional story that we knew. When he said, "All I know is Christ crucified," he was speaking quite literally. He was very fearful going to Jerusalem and meeting for the first time James, the brother of Jesus. Why was he so afraid? Because he didn't know what he was talking about and he knew it. He was filling in the gaps with his imagination and he was afraid he would be thoroughly castigated by those who actually knew Jesus. I'd always had a negative feeling about Paul, so I was receptive to this idea.

The clincher for me--and clearly I am not an academic like the posters above-- was when I saw the Mahabarata Hindu epic on HuluPlus. There were multiple virgin births (every god had one) and I recognized immediately that Krishna was in the pattern of The Savior, as was Jesus. Elements in this epic story (dated at 2900 BCE based on astronomical references mentioned) closely resembled or exactly matched Bible stories which I had been lead to believe were literal truth.

In my previous thread, I mentioned that Krishna's parents were imprisoned but due to divine intervention, the guards fell into a deep sleep and the doors swung open by themselves, allowing Krishna's parents to walk out. We all recognize this as similar to the story of St. Peter's escape from a Roman prisons when angels caused the guards to fall asleep and the doors swung open...

My own curiosity about similarities in non-Christian religions has given me a great peace about Mormonism in general. It has given me perspective and understanding. Joseph Smith's angel with a flaming sword is the same as the angels guarding the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil with a flaming sword. Religion is old news, folks, and every "new" religion is just a rewrap of the same old myths.

Like a "new" dish at Taco Bell. It's always a recombination of a tortilla, meat mix, cheese and salad.


Anagrammy

"Like a "new" dish at Taco Bell. It's always a recombination of a tortilla, meat mix, cheese and salad."

good one, anagrammy...

Hah! "Now, with extra corn!". Cuz it's super cheap, we charge you a big markup, and it will fill you proles up with simple carbs to keep you going. Works for our other livestock...

Now that many of you proles are too poor to afford even our "meat mix"...

Sounds like correlated Moism to me...

"Now with extra tithing, and a full bowl of obedience-y goodness!".