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Posted by: Mormoney ( )
Date: August 22, 2012 06:21PM

So I tried looking up "telestial" and it doesn't seem to be a very prevalent word in english, but somewhere I read it means earthly. Then there's "terrestrial" which also means earthly, or land. Then there's "celestial" which basically means heavens, or sky, or whatever.

Isn't it mormon belief that the earth will eventually be converted into the celestial kingdom, will be like a sea of glass, converted into one big crystal ball or something. It'll be like our very own version of kolob or something.

So why then, of the three degrees of glory, only the "celestial" degree will actually be situated on earth. Seems like a bit of an oxymoron to me. Then the two "earthly" degrees of glory will be elsewhere, location yet to be determined? Perhaps lease papers are still being negotiated for the moon and mars?

Maybe my logic is flawed, I dunno, but maybe Joseph Smith just didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Big shock I know.

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Posted by: Mormoney ( )
Date: August 22, 2012 06:23PM

i admit i never considered this as a TBM. One of those things that isn't necessary for our salvation.

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Posted by: Tristan-Powerslave ( )
Date: August 22, 2012 06:41PM


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Posted by: popolvuh ( )
Date: August 22, 2012 06:44PM

Do you remember learning that the celestialized earth will be made flat, the mountains made plain? My TBM mom will still say to me sighing, "I really love mountains, I will miss them". I'm throwing up a little in my mouth even now thinking about it...

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Posted by: Mormoney ( )
Date: August 22, 2012 07:02PM

yes I've heard that too. Something to do with the fact the mountains are scars and imperfections in the earth or some BS like that.

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Posted by: Dallin A. Chokes ( )
Date: August 23, 2012 11:01AM

Heaven is Kansas.

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Posted by: Mordecai ( )
Date: August 22, 2012 09:35PM

isn't the Celestial kingdom supposed to be divided into three further classes or degrees? I think I remember being taught that. Can anyone throw more light on it?

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Posted by: Mormoney ( )
Date: August 22, 2012 10:29PM

i don't know where that's written, perhaps journal of discourses or something, but I believe that's correct because I've heard the exact same thing and believed that to be doctrine when I was a tbm

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Posted by: rationalguy ( )
Date: August 22, 2012 10:11PM

Somewhere in the imaginative writings of JS or a subsequent prophet I heard that the earth will be smooth and will become a giant seer stone, revealing all truths by looking into it. Can't remember where I read this.

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Posted by: canadianfriend ( )
Date: August 22, 2012 10:12PM

Joseph Smith "interpreted" the Bible, but he didn't quite get it right.

Corinthians 15:40-41

“There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.”

Here Paul is talking about earthly bodies, and resurrected heavenly bodies, not degrees of heaven.

The telestial kingdom was also made up to complete the three heavens.

Mormons will point to this reference and they don't seem to care that Smith screwed up badly.

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Posted by: Mormoney ( )
Date: August 23, 2012 09:38AM

So it seems as though "telestial" is really a made up word. When I google it, I get some company (prolly founded my mormons), or the telestial kingdom. No definitions, nothing.

Thanks for the reference canadianfriend (I'm a canuck too), that also explains why earlier mormon prophets figured the moon was a superior planet to the earth, also why JFS said man couldn't travel there. Basing their understanding of which celestial objects were most superior by their prevalence in the sky.

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Posted by: justrob ( )
Date: August 22, 2012 11:27PM

Smith was just using Masonic symbology to add mystery & intrigue.

Any attempt to apply logic to things like that will always fail.

For example, take the Garment:
You have a symbol over each nipple, 1 over the navel, & 1 over the knee
Each "means" something, but only the nipples get true "symbols" that have intrinsic meaning (the compass & square), where as the others are just marks over a body part that gets the meaning (every knee will bow, and health in the navel)
...but that's not all...
Now you get to the veil, where they have all the marks, and the nipple marks are special there too, because you grab each other's shoulders through them.
Now you do all your hand shakes through a hole in the middle of the curtain... but don't make the mistake of thinking that is the navel mark, no no no, they very clearly make a separate line for the knee & navel... again meaningless ones with no symbolism just like in the garment.
And where did this other hole come from where you put your hand through to do their hand shakes? Well, simply out of necessity, 'cuz you can't shake hands through the curtain... that'd just be silly.

I'd lol if I weren't so sad.

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Posted by: Grumpoledog ( )
Date: August 23, 2012 09:30AM

I always thought the Celestial Kingdom sounded boring and for lack of better words...ugly.

Crystal sea? All white? sounds sterile and depressing.

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Posted by: SuperJoeSmith ( )
Date: August 23, 2012 09:49AM

Joey Smith's heavens: good, better, best.

Ah, so totally..American.

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Posted by: Jim Huston ( )
Date: August 23, 2012 10:43AM

Joseph Smith was familiar with the work of Emanuel Swedenborg. Swedenborg was a 18th century mystic who wrote about the nature of heaven in his book "Heaven and its Wonders and Hell", which included a description of three degrees of glory and the celestial kingdom. Swedenborg got many of his ideas from the study of Kabbalism.

Deconstructor has a nice discussion about Swedenborg and the Mormon view of heaven. http://www.i4m.com/think/history/swedenborg.htm

Craig Miller has a researched article on the subject http://craigwmiller.tripod.com/interest.htm#Unique%20Similarities

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Posted by: yours_truly ( )
Date: August 23, 2012 10:49AM

Maybe it can be used as some kind of metaphor for the world? Celestial those on 'the top of the world', leaders, examples, idols. Terrestrials those that 'almost' are there, on 'their way there'. Telestials those that barely make it, the invisible. Sons of perdition,hell - those that are outcasts, criminals, murderers.

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Posted by: brainfrees ( )
Date: August 23, 2012 10:54AM

Even if you give TSCC some wiggle room to claim that sections 131 and 132 apply to "temple" marriage and not just polygamy, the passages still can be summarized as follows:

Every person who is not sealed to a member of the opposite sex in a Mormon temple will be a servant to those couples, even if they make it to the celestial kingdom. After they punch the clock at the end of their service shift in the Molly's mansion, they go home at night to sleep alone in the second or third degree of the celestial kingdom. However, everyone who makes it to one of the three levels of the celestial kingdom will still get a crystal ball and get to live on the glass-crystal-ball-former earth. Joseph Smith, by his own definition, may be stuck in the telestial kingdom - depending on the prevailing political and social pressures on TSCC during the final judgment.


D&C 131
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and deverlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

D&C 132

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead,
...
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.


D&C 130
8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

10 Then the white astone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.


D&C 76 (verse 103 clearly explains where Joseph Smith will spend his imaginary eternity)...

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to ahell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the aministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.

...


98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of aEsaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the cchurch of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are athey who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they dcannot come, worlds without end.

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Posted by: xyz ( )
Date: August 23, 2012 10:59AM

The Space Program is all a Mormon plot for the eternities!

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