I read somewhere that it was because the way it was made back then. I drank a frappachino before and I didn't die. I'd like to ask them why god would make that a rule. He wouldn't ban it for no reason. An obedience test is a terrible excuse.

I don't know this for sure, but I think the Mormons were doing it because the Millerites were doing it.

Interesting that there are so many answers. I for one always had issue with a church that had such a strong belief in this but a million different answers why.

My Dad's theory was that Brigham Young decided to put this in when he realized that the settlers were spending their money on products (coffee and tobacco) which were not grown in Utah.

You could ask why God would make something with caffiene in it when he made the planet in the first place?

Musta been some coffee grounds in the "parts" he used...

The culprit back in the 1980's was "tannin". With no Wiki-anything back then I didn't know any different and so I parroted this to beguiled converts.

As per Wikipedia tannins are naturally found in the following:
- Fruits
- Smoked foods
- Herbs and spices
- Legumes
- Chocolate

There are toxic and non-toxic versions of tannin apparently and yet there are some health benefits as the chemical is responsible for ripening of fruit. It's got an astringent property and can have antioxidant properties.

Tannins can also be bound up and neutralized in a beverage by the addition of a small amount of milk.

This is why I add a small amount of milk to my very strong morning coffee, it's less bitter and easier on the tumm.

Any mormon I have asked will insist it is an obedience test, and acknowledges that there are benefits. They obtain these benefits through "ritalin, black grapes, and herb teas like raspberry".

Definitely better for you that tea, coffee, or red wine... /sarcasm.

Yeah I know some annoying mormons.

Before the church clarified there position on Soda and the popular belief was that caffeine is the culprit Mormons had a least a defensible rationale for this section of the WOW, that could even be perceived as somewhat inspired. Also if caffeine is the issue, it makes fairly easy to determine what is kosher to drink and what is not. If it contains caffeine don't drink it, if it is caffeine free it is ok. With the position clarification things are no longer so clear. Is steam milk now against the WOW?

If caffeine, in regards to the LDSInc. Word of Wisdom teaching, is now suddenly benign, and apparently has always been benign, and was never the reason for the WoW bans, then I have to ask:

Why did the LDS Church News publish endless, endless articles over the entire 20th century advocating against caffeine, as a toxic, addictive, health-destroying substance? The church through it's newspaper made it clear that caffeine was a soul-destroyer.

Why were we members counseled endlessly in Sunday School to avoid the appearance of evil and the destructive power of caffeine?

Why was I grilled by bishops in TR recommend interviews about the details of my beverage habits?

And now it's not a problem? And it never was? And LDSInc. never actually said it was a problem?

Hmmm...

your "beverage habits"?


The Bishop: "Have you been morally clean? Have you committed beverage masturbation?"

I heard it was because Mormons were being poisoned through use of these drinks. Does anyone kbow if there is any truth to this?

It denotes you are part of the group and that you can be trusted. It isn't the properties of coffee or tea that really matter; it is what avoiding them signifies. It's a sacrifice or cost you pay as a group member and reinforces your identity in that group. The particular properties of coffee or tea are secondary, although that is what is usually argued as rationales for using or not using them.

The same is true for odd beliefs and doctrines--professing them identifies the holder as a member of a particular group and separate to some degree from the general population. These odd beliefs represent a sacrifice as well in that believers often have some sense they are professing something "irrational" and to maintain belief they have to suppress aspects and perhaps lose some respect in the community.

You mean like Romney's hair?

And Rafalca?

(I told my sister that it was sad that smartest member of the Romney family lived in a stable and ate moldy alfalfa...)

+1

Because they believe that God commanded them to abstain from those things through His Prophet. If God said that they're bad, then they're bad, no matter what modern medicine may say about them.

I heard it was kind of a footnote to the revelation. It all got started when Emma was annoyed with the men chewing tobacco and spitting it all over the floor and then she would have to clean it up. This part is taught in church manuals as well. So Joseph conveniently got a revelation that people shouldn't do the things that were making his wife mad. But then the men were pissed off that the things they liked to do were banned but the women still got to do what they liked which was to drink tea and coffee. So then Joseph added on that tea and coffee were banned as well. But Emma kept drinking tea and coffee anyway and Joseph kept drinking alcohol and smoking. It was all just a suggestion back then.

I believe this is the most likely explanation, along with the temperance movement that was popular at the time.

The most significant aspect of the story is that nobody seemed to care about the WoW until the 20th century, yet it was still used as an excuse for excommunicating people Smith didn't like.

The Word of Wisdom replaced polygamy in terms of making Mormons a distinct people. They replaced one identifier with another. When I was Mormon I don't recall giving a rationale for the Word of Wisdom except, "I am Mormon, so that's what I do," which I think is a perfectly valid reason--much better than the rationalizations they come up with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2012 03:51PM by robertb.

"The Word of Wisdom replaced polygamy in terms of making Mormons a distinct people."

^


i was trying my best last nite to explain the significance of the recent WoW clarification to nevermo gf and failing miserably - your approach makes much more sense

thanks!

When the Joseph made the revelation about tobacco and alcohol he added the hot drinks, Coffee and tea so the women would have to give something up also.

Temperance societies,and a Cold water society were around in the area during this time. The idea for the 'word of wisdom' was not new to old Joe.

It replaces circumcision to mark someone as a member of the 'chosen people?'

I have always been baffled by this. Especially since pop isn't really all that good for a person.

I think it's because caffeine in large doses is toxic to vampires.

My husband thinks it's because large doses of caffeine are not good for you, but lower doses are OK. Try getting him to drink a decaf coffee or a green tea though ...

My mom is convinced that it's an obedience test. Apparently her God believes in giving completely nonsensical commandments, just to see if you'll be obedient to him. She told me this was because when Christ comes again, the Mormons will run his government and God, much like Hitler and Stalin, demands exact, unquestioning obedience from his governmental staff and mid-level bureaucrats.

LOL!! That is a brilliant little analysis, seriously. I think your mom might be mind-melding with my own parents. My dad is so rightwing he's pretty much a fascist, yet his morgish justifications for mindless obedience are exactly as you describe here. I guess totalitarianism is GOOD when god's elect are in charge, duh!@*

Would BKP be Himmler or Goebbels? Wait, he's crazy enough to be Stalin. Or, perhaps, Goering.

Personally, I want to be the Claus Von Stauffenberg of the lds.

(Stauffenberg was one of the masterminds of the plot to overthrow Hitler 20JUL44 by planting a bomb in a conference room where Hitler was holding a meeting. He was played by Tom Cruise in the movie.)

(Sorry to so long winded, but I just wrote a book about this.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2012 07:39PM by John_Lyle.

Wouldn't it have been better for all of us, if Emma had just bought a couple of spittoons?

Back on my mission we learned how to answer questions based on what we heard other missionaries say.

Two common answers we gave:

1) Why is tea and coffee prohibited with caffeine isn't?
A: It's the tanic acid.

2) Why did Jesus make & drink wine if alcohol is so bad?
A: It was grape juice.

Gawd I was stupid.

I was surprised when I learned that ALL grape juice used to be alcoholic to some extent. The reason the Welches name became famous is because one of their ancestors found a way to make grape juice that didn't turn into alcohol. Apparently there is something in the skin that makes fermentation inevitable and it was the Welch family who found out how to take that out so that grape juice didn't automatically begin to become wine.

From: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, Jerald and Sandra Tanner: http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech18.htm#468

""Brigham Young left us an interesting account concerning conditions that led to the giving of the Word of Wisdom:

'The first school of the prophets was held in a small room situated over the Prophet Joseph's kitchen.... When they assembled together in this room after breakfast, the first they did was to light their pipes, and, while smoking, talk about the great things of the kingdom, and spit all over the room, and as soon as the pipe was out of their mouths a large chew of tobacco would then be taken. Often when the Prophet entered the room to give the school instructions he would find himself in a cloud of tobacco smoke. This, and the complaints of his wife at having to clean so filthy a floor, made the Prophet think upon the matter, and he inquired of the Lord relating to the conduct of the Elders in using tobacco, and the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom was the result of his inquiry' (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 158).

It has been suggested that the temperance movement led to Joseph Smith's "Word of Wisdom." Leonard J. Arrington, who has since become church historian, provides this enlightening information:

'In recent years a number of scholars have contended that the revelation is an outgrowth of the temperance movement of the early nineteenth century. According to Dean D. McBrien .... the Word of Wisdom was a remarkable distillation of the prevailing thought of frontier America in the early 1830's. Each provision in the revelation, he claimed, pertained to an item which had formed the basis of widespread popular agitation in the early 1830's:

"A survey of the situation existing at Kirtland when the revelation came forth is a sufficient explanation for it. The temperance wave had for some time been engulfing the West.... In 1826 Marcus Morton had founded the American Temperance Society.... In June, 1830, the Millenial Harbinger quoted ... an article from the Philadelphia 'Journal of Health,'... which article most strongly condemned the use of alcohol, tobacco, the eating intemperately of meats.... Temperance Societies were organized in great numbers during the early thirties, six thousand being formed in one year... On October 6, 1830, the Kirtland Temperance Society was organized with two hundred thirty nine members.... This society at Kirtland was a most active one.... it revolutionized the social customs of the neighborhood."'

McBrien then goes ahead to point out that the Temperance Society succeeded in eliminating a distillery in Kirtland on February 1, 1833, just twenty-seven days before the Latter-day Saint revelation counseling abstinence was announced, and that the distillery at Mentor, near Kirtland, was also closed at the same time (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1959, pp. 39-40).

In his book The Burned-Over District, pages 211-12, Whitney R. Cross points out that "the temperance movement ... began much earlier... During the 1830's it attained national scope. ... Further, if alcohol was evil because it frustrated the Lord's design for the human body, other drugs like tea, coffee, and tobacco must be equally wrong ... Josiah Bissell.... had even before the 1831 revival 'got beyond Temperance to the Cold Water Society—no tea, coffee or any other slops.' ""

Mormon doctrine and authority trumps brains and free will and also helps preserve the cult-like attitude of us vs them. Mormons like to feel special and more worthy than coffee and tobacco users.

If the Mormon church owns a percentage of (anything) it becomes o.k.

A former bishop of mine was a clinical pathologist. His "thing" was the Word of Wisdom. He collected slides from autopsies of conditions caused by flagrant violations of the WoW. He would present these results to youth at Church or in high schools. Strangely, his presentation was very thin regarding coffee and tea. The bishop said he felt coffee andd tea were responsible for Alzheimer's and other conditions of senility.

That bishop has left the Church. I can't say if he continues preaching the Word of Wisdom with the same fervor, however.

The reason that coffee and tea are so bad for Mormons is because if your bishop learns that a member drinks coffee or tea (either through their own confession or someone "helping" him), then the member may lose their temple recommend. For many Mormons that is the only consequence that causes them any significance.

Therefore, it is all about obedience.

Did he happen to preach against eating meat except in time of severe cold and famine? Or did he ignore that one like the rest of the mo pop?

The bishop had slides demonstrating how people damaged their digestive tracts by eating excessive meats.

Everyone expected him to have smoker's lungs and livers from alcoholics. But he also had a lung full of chalk that had choked a crack addict and a heart that the valves had been chewed away by syphillis.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2012 10:13AM by idleswell.

Funny how they have to use more than just the doctrines to keep people obedient, which shows how realistic the doctrines are if they have to use Starbucks to keep people in line.

I have few vivid memories of my short journey through the crap-for-brains sect known as mormonism. This is one:


I vividly recall the two vacant-eyed mormon missionaries who solemnly informed me: "We don't believe in hot beverages."

My incredulous response: "You mean you can't have soup?"


It was many decades before I understand that the funny, sheepish looks that washed over their precious little faces was visible evidence of cognitive dissonance ...