It would seem to me that in the paradigm of the gospel, HM is dramatically inferior to HF. This apparent disaparity should be insulting to women everywhere.

Of course, the Church explains that b/c HM is so sacred we aren't given more information about Her (or taught to pray to Her etc.). However, I believe it is a reflection of the pervasive and denegrating (to women) superiority ascribed to men within the gospel context (i.e., HF is the head of His Celestial household, so even though our HP's are equal, He is MORE equal than Her and gets to make all the decisions about how prayers are answered etc.--we don't even get to address any appeals to our HM!).

What do you think?

Next time I'm in a meeting/gathering w/ TBM's and I'm asked to give a prayer I will be addressing our Heavenly Mother. Maybe She will actually listen and answer--who knows?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2012 11:53AM by citizen.

Non-existent.

Fair enough :)

This is less a practical matter than one of speculation etc.

I don't have much insight other than to say that this caused some serious trouble for one of my female LDS friends when she was practicing. Margaret Toscano has some really great talks and articles on this topic.

Here's a youtube link to the portion of her interview with "Mormon Stories" about Heavenly Mother: http://youtu.be/0TJrOfqEMKo .

This link will take you to Sunstone magazine issue that has her essay: www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/133-14-22.pdf . If you don't want to click directly on the link, just type in "is there a place for heavenly mother in mormon theology".

I heard a theory from a TBM on Heavenly Mother.

First, in order to obtain the highest level of the celestial kingdom, elohim had to achieve exaltation and live in polygamy.

So, this TBM's theory was that elohim had a minimum of 4 wives: one each to represent caucasions, blacks, indians, and asians. (The fact that blacks could only be slaves in the celestial kingdom didn't shake his theory. On the other hand, what is an eternally pregnant goddess, if not a slave?)

Therefore, the reason we don't know Heavenly Mother's name or anything about her is that the entire human race does not have the same HM. Imagine the confusion in Sunday School.

Here's what I think of being a HM: what's the point of being a Heavenly Mother to a bunch of kids who don't know your name, don't know anything about you, rarely think of you, and never speak to you? Nevermind the fact that your hubby had to screw one of your daughters so that "your" son could save the rest of the kids.

Yeah, sign me up for that. gag.

+infinity

Post Script: WTF? That TBM theory is messed up.

Elohim and Eloher. Cute couple. Couple of what? I don't know.

:) Ha, ha. Well played, orchid.

Quote of the day!!

I think you offering pray to both would make people squirm in their seats...DO IT!!

Once upon a time in girls camp a girl got up to give her testimony and t began to bawl because she was sure that God had a father and that we also had heavenly grandparents.

*crickets*

But yeah as a lil valiant 8 I remember getting the story about HM being too sacred to talk about, because God could not stand to have us blaspheme her.

Shit if I was a Goddess what the fuck would I care if a bunch of hairless monkies were talking smack on me...I'm gonna go surf a nebula...

LOL! Amen, sister!

Which heavenly mother ;O

The church has to teach that there's a Heavenly Mother because her existence is necessary to the church's theological system. Beyond that, the less attention she gets, the better.

This is because paying attention to her leads to too many awkward questions. First, is she a goddess in the same way that Elohim is a god? If the answer is yes, then why isn't she worshipped, and why doesn't she reveal herself? If the answer is no, then doesn't that mean that not only she but all of her daughters are inherently inferior to males?

There's also the matter of polygamy, which is the church's least favorite topic. Is there just one Heavenly Mother, or is there more than one? If just one, then what can be made of all those prophetic utterances to the effect that polygamy is required for exaltation? And why isn't Elohim apparently married to more than one wife for time and eternity, the way that Dallin Oaks and several other Mormon men are today?

If members decide that there is or at least could be more than more than one Heavenly Mother, then the church must deal with the PR fallout of having belief in a polygamous god be something that is acceptable within the church. Let's hear Mitt field that one.

Better to just tell people to shut up about Heavenly Mother, because talking about her is disrespectful. We should talk about Heavenly Father instead, because for some reason that is respectful. Go figure.

Fuck 'em both, I guess :)

Thanks for your perspective, oddcouplet, that sounds right to me... I'll press the point for fun in meetings (I've got to do something, right?).

You know, the Mormon God didn't create all the spirit children with just one wife. There are 7 BILLION people on Earth right now and counting. There have been an estimated 35 BILLION modern era people born so far! Gees, the universe is only 14 billion years old. The Mormon God would be boinking His wives constantly. Would he time for anything else?

What about the refractory period? He must have lots of stamina...

Do spirit pregnancies sometimes miscarriage?
What does a spiritual menstrual cycle look like?
Does it take 9 months for a spirit baby to gestate?
Spirit milk?
Spirit umbilical cords and belly buttons?

Lots of q's, not too many answers...

I've spent the last 3 years doing genealogy and because I'm so righteous I have received a special PAF 9000 ancestry file only downloadable to us second genealogy anointed ones.

In this super sacred file I have been able to trace my lineage here on earth all the way back to Adam. The fun didn't stop there though. As we all know from the temple, Adam was really Michael. So the PAF 9000 file continues before the veil and I was able to trace my lineage all the way back 48 God cycles! My heavenly mother was HM #5675309 (also known as Michelle) and my heavenly grandmother was HGM #3457826 (known on her "earthly planet" as Sally). It gets a little tricky from here because Joseph Smith's heavenly grandfather took a couple heavenly mothers as spiritual wives for dynastic purposes of course but the evidence points to a lot of celestial sex on numerous occasions.

I'm awaiting the arrival of the next PAF upgrade to version 9000.002 before I can sort through the celestial DNA party bowl and go back possibly another 12 God cycles. I've prayed and received so much inspiration from the spirit of Elijah's heavenly mother I just know that I will someday break through the 48th God cycle.

This is important to me because I have many celestial ancestors who chose Satan's great great great great great granddaddy and didn't get a chance to come to their "earth like planet" so I must give them a chance to live life on this earth through a reverse proxy earthly experience.

The church is twoooo I just know it because of the wonderful spirit I felt doing celestial genealogy before the veil. My eyes have seen the veil lifted and I've seen heavenly father sitting on the right side of multiple heavenly mothers.

If God has a wife, she is in one heck of an abusive relationship.

She isn't allowed to communicate with her own children. No one can talk to her or about her. Her opinions and assistance are deemed of no value by her whole family.

This woman probably needs significant help. Lord knows what else he's doing to her.

Joseph never thought through any of his theology that's why there are so many contradictions and absurdities. He just shot from the hip.

I seem to remember the Heavenly Mother idea came from Eliza Snow. Wasn't she responsible for the lyrics to 'O My Father' and came up with the reference to HM? Joseph thought that was a good idea.

However, he hadn't run the math that BYUAlumnuts mentioned above.

Awesome :)

It falls under the whole, "we are too embarrassed to talk about that" section of doctrine.

"It's not secret, it's not sacred, it's just embarrasing", now everybody move along.

It's not sacred, it's stupid.

Sacred secret same thing. But most importantly nonexistent

Wouldn't Heavenly Mother be to mormons what the Virgin Mary is to Catholics? Except Catholics aren't ashamed to pray to the Virgin Mary.

I always got an icky feeling when someone suggested I was a daughter of a polygamous Heavenly Father.

I suspect the "sealed" portion of the Book of Mormon is where we would find the doctrine on "Heavenly Mother" along with the meaning of the temple rituals,... if we are just patient perhaps the Profit will receive a revelation on this and other tasty secrets hidden therein!

>>Wouldn't Heavenly Mother be to mormons what the Virgin Mary is to Catholics?

That's a common misconception. Catholics pray _with_ the Virgin Mary.

The Rosary, for example, when prayed in its complete length, involves following Jesus's life. There are 5 sets of "Mysteries" (events). The idea is that Mary followed Jesus and the faithful follow beside her in faith.

Catholics consider Mary to be the Mother of God, as well as the Mother of the Church, and Queen of the Universe. This is Vatican II, this is official doctrine of the HRACC.

On the surface she seems to very much be our Heavenly Mother, but digging just under the dirt you realize that she is a step above God. For the past 200 years the Immaculate Conception, and The Assumption of Mary have been the first and only times that the doctrine of the Infallibility of the Pope has been exercised. Don't give me this BS about Pray with Mary to Jesus.

and now, like BY did to his harem when they couldn't pop out babies, she is retired to one of the outer rooms and is sleeping with another equally non-productive sister wife. HF continues to upgrade HM's...like BY...always going for the younger, productive models.

I say this in the name of Jospeh Smith and Fanny Alger, Amen.

Just veiled and stuck up on a pedestal.

I think pregnancies are faster in Kolob. A woman is only pregnant for a day with a spirit child. But they do get pregnant everyday which means the heavenly mothers are always pregnant.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2012 07:06PM by blueorchid.

I never fixated on HM. My main reminder that this was Mormon doctrine was the hymn "Oh My Father". In shifting doctrines this one seems vulnerable to modern (bureaucracy) prophecy, with its' main challenge being eternal families and the answer to the question "What will we be doing everyday in (Mormon) heaven?" I would answer, what? Sacrament meeting? FHE? Now that sounds like hell to me.

Who knows maybe the loss of this doctrine will be what gets the LDS mothers to release their families from the cult. I suspect eternal families are at the core of their devotion.