I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but I'm just looking around.

Let me preface my story with this: Just like there are people who bash any religion, there are people who bash Mormons. I know the difference between ignorant bashing and legitimate discussion. I know what, for the most part, the church teaches on doctrinal points. I don't need or care for idiotic comments or nonsense - I'll correct someone who misrepresents what LDS people believe the same as I would for Baptist beliefs, or Catholic ones.

So to me. Short version. Dated a Mormon girl who wasn't particularly stout in her beliefs. She got me interested. I studied for months, some of the basic doctrines made more sense than I had given them credit. Started thinking. Decided to try it. The more I investigated and the more I participated the happier I was. The people, generally, are nice. The church has an excellent face and, regardless of anything else, they DO do good things for people, at least in some places and situations.

We've had marital troubles. Not long after being married (we got married months after I joined, then moved to a church school for a year of college, my second year, her first, and then got sealed while there), we decided to have a child (See President Kimball's teaching about not waiting for children and etc, for my wife's reasoning there). The pregnancy was hard on her and afterwards things got worse. Blah blah, we moved back home, I was called to Exec Sec, I went to work for my Bishop as I was currently unemployed. Now I work for him in a new business venture, very closely. It makes things hard to question. He's a very good guy, and recently, around our third anniversary and child's second bday, my wife and I were separated for almost half a year. She left the church, ironically, and I stayed. The bishop helped steer us back together. No matter what, I owe him that. My family is whole again.

But neither my wife or I are convinced anymore. Things are starting to seem ridiculous. Garments. The temple. Callings. I've sat through so many pointless Bishopric and Ward meetings. I've seen callings issued that had zero 'spirit' behind them.

At the same time I see people like my bishop, who I know personally, perhaps better than anyone outside his immediate family, and... he sincerely believes. Sincerely. No doubts in my mind. I can see some people as being duplicitous, or believing because they don't know what else to do... but he believes.

Why? I don't understand. If there is a God, I get the Mormon idea of him better than the Trinity. Sure. But most Mormon beliefs... I don't know. Why is there no proof at all of the BOM? There is authenticated historicity behind parts of the Bible - not the theology, but the history of it. The BOM? None that I know of.

What about the Moonmen teachings?
Predictions of the end of the US?
True Names given to every male/female person coming to a temple in the same day are the same? Why?
I could go on forever.

While we were separated, I had some alcohol. It was good. The Spirit didn't tell me not to, or react in any way at all.

Since we've begun questioning, we've stopped regularly attending church, just intermittently. We've stopped wearing garments. It is nice. My wife is prettier than she gives herself credit for and it's nice for her to be able to show off sometimes when she wants to, and not be bothered by them.

I had a cappuccino on the way to work. I've missed those.

Thoughts? Rational ones, and not 'blah mormons are evil and going to hell' ones?

If you don't like Mormonism or need it, or find it fulfilling, ditch it. It's nobody's business but yours.

Find what works for you, create your own World View, together. and enjoy that little one! You are adults, you are not beholding to anyone do not answer to anyone.

I come from a line of Christian ministers, and spent over three decades as a member of the LDS Church as a true believer,so I know what it means to be a sincere believer.
The bishop/employeer is who he is. He probably won't change.
It's probably his generational, societal, familial, traditional religious tribe, as I often say. It's part of who he is and he has no interest in questioning it. It's home, God and apple pie.

I changed my mind and left all of it in my late 50's several years ago.
I much prefer my life now. It's a kind of freedom that can't be duplicated. No outside controls through religion. AHHH.... what a relief!

Sounds to me like you are your wife are finding that freedom and are reaping the fruits.

Life is short. Find a way to enjoy it - all of it. Take any controls off you don't want or need.

And what do we do about the veiled threats regarding our responsibility due to our being endowed members, and all of that. If the church happened to be true...

That's a question worth asking to be honest. What, doctrinally, happens then? We go to a lesser kingdom when we die? Is that honestly a killer problem anyway? *shrug*

It seems to me as though it's impossible to swallow hook line and sinker without truly indoctrinating yourself - it's why you are asked to read, pray, attend meetings, do callings, temple, etc constantly - constant immersion fosters belief. But then, if it was true, that would make sense in a legit way, too.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 07:42PM by jeff1009.

jeff1009 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And what do we do about the veiled threats
> regarding our responsibility due to our being
> endowed members, and all of that. If the church
> happened to be true...
>
> That's a question worth asking to be honest. What,
> doctrinally, happens then? We go to a lesser
> kingdom when we die? Is that honestly a killer
> problem anyway? *shrug*


The "veiled threats" are empty threats, imaginary.
It's all imaginary -- really. There is no evidence of any of those doctrines. They are just human beings trying to figure out how to get people to make "nice nice" and behave themselves so they can get some reward in an imaginary after life. It's about control, not much else.

You don't have to accept empty threats! :-)
Really!

They won't be all warm and fuzzy and accepting. They will present ideas that are contrary. They will cause people to think about what they are saying. Some will even go so far as to personally attack someone (not acceptable here.)

Like it or not, that's the real world! On an anonymous board, people will often say things they won't say in a face to face conversation, that are hostile, caustic, nasty, challenging, contrary, and on and on.

I often say it helps to put on a Duck Suit and let stuff roll off your back when on a posting board on the Internet.

Learn to sift what you read, cull what you think you can use at the time, and not take anything personally. Usually, most posters find what they need here.

One thing that may assist you in your struggles over this issue is the idea that we humans are very predictable creatures. If we have lied about certain topics in the past, we are likely to lie about those same topics in the future.

Bringing this back to Mormonism, if the BOM isn't genetically and historically accurate (something you indicate understanding in your first post), then what is the likelihood that its vision of the afterlife with its various kingdoms is true. However much we may want to, we cannot always hinder making decisions on "what if our decision was wrong" policies--that would inhibit us from making any decisions in the first place. While it is very good to learn about all possible consequences that we can before making a large decision like whether or not Mormonism is true, in the end, that decision must ultimately be made, and I think the best way to make it is based upon what I learned in business school many years ago: Base the decision on what is most likely true and not on things that are much less likely to be true.

Good luck!

You come across as an intelligent person who is ableo study and reach your own conclusions. Many people remain in this or any church for social reasons without swallowing hook,line and sinker.

When,or if, you decide to cut the ties it must be your decision and this board can help with the discussions you might want along that line.

So telling the truth about religion is "bashing ?

Sounds like you have an agenda.

Also sounds like you are truth bashing.

No, bashing is 'Baptists believe more in john the baptist than jesus' or 'mormons are all polygamists and all leaders in their church are evil and 'in on the con' "

And people who are antagonistic are of no help to me. This is my first reach out for support, and I'd rather not be heckled. It's odd enough as is.


I never once said the 'truth is bashing.'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 07:43PM by jeff1009.

Your agenda betrays you.

So, following the advice of the people above, I should just ignore this guy, and keep him from shoving of and ignoring this place?

:p

...useless posts.


Cheers and good luck to you, Jeff. I don't have much to say but am interested in what others will say. Just remember, most of us were once where you are now, and many of us have found more joy more happiness and more life after leaving LDSinc. Not to mention, we all grew 10% richer. :^)

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...useless posts.
>
>
> Cheers and good luck to you, Jeff. I don't have
> much to say but am interested in what others will
> say. Just remember, most of us were once where
> you are now, and many of us have found more joy
> more happiness and more life after leaving LDSinc.
> Not to mention, we all grew 10% richer. :^)

I second that. Dave is famous for one line zingers and little else.

I don't think you'd find anyone here who would announce that Mormons are going to hell. And many of us have Mormon loved ones. I still love all the people. I just hate the Church.

Why? Because I've studed the issues and found that I'd been lied to. There is real, solid evidence out there that the Church is not what it claims to be. There is no evidence that it is true, but plenty that it is not. No one needs to tell a lie about the Church. There is enough indisputable evidence to show that it simply isn't.

Try mormonthink.com. It's run by Mormons, where both sides of the issues are presented. Once you've studied it for yourself, you can come to your own conclusions.

When I studied my way out, I learned that 1) you have to want to know the truth, no matter what that truth is, which takes bravery. Ex-Mormons are bravest people I know. And 2) You have to study it out for yourself. No one handing you the answers will work.

When I was first studying my way out, people would give me places to study the issues. I couldn't understand why they wouldn't just hand me the answers. I learned why. I probably would have just decided they were lying. Everyone needs to do their own studying and draw their own conclusions from their studies.

I wish you the best in your journey. It can be quite an eye-opening and interesting road.

I'll check out that site! Thanks.

Jeff1009, keep searching--your gut and the library. There are hecklers here, yes, but there are also many people who will give you links to information and support you emotionally as you search for truth.

Each of us walks a different path. Each of us must find what works for us. It's not the same for everyone.

I'm still a member of the church, but inactive. The thing that broke it for me was the Book of Abraham and reading Charles M. Larson's excellent book, *...By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus* (I think you can still get a copy at Amazon.com), which showed me that, without any doubt, the Book of Abraham is a fantasy. After I read that book and realized the fraud of it, I was done.

I guess I'm just trying to say, it ain't easy, what you're going through. When I converted as an adult, some 8 years ago, the Mormon church made more sense to me than any other church I'd attended (and I'd attended a lot of them). Now ... I'm still dealing with it being fake. But I DO believe it IS fake.

Good luck to you. Am sending you oceans of light and support in your journey.

Why don't you just lurk here until you have an actual question?

You'll learn we are friendly but not fake nice. Sometimes people are combative when contacting apostates because they've been conditioned that we believe Mormons are evil and going to hell.

We completely understand that because we've been there ourselves. You said:

"I know the difference between ignorant bashing and legitimate discussion. I know what, for the most part, the church teaches on doctrinal points. I don't need or care for idiotic comments or nonsense..."

Well, Jeff, neither do we, so let's get to it: We have nothing to sell. We offer support for people who are in emotional pain or have questions relating to Mormonism or life after Mormonism. Some people here are rude or crude at times, because it helps to express what has been bottled up for so long. This is an accepting environment, generally speaking, but you may like a more heavily moderated forum.
After all, you are coming from the most heavily circumscribed life available outside of a walled cult. That's why Mormons, along with the Amish, are the only two religions which have been deemed an actual American subculture. Most exmormons here believe it's a cult. And we have strong feelings about the damage done to families by the practices and lies promulgated by the deceptive leaders of The So Called Church (TSCC). Still reading?

OF COURSE you miss the freedom to enjoy harmless pleasures,
OF COURSE you know someone who really believes and
OF COURSE there are "good" Mormons.

Do you have a question? If not, lurk more and jump right in to any subject that strikes your hot button. You are welcome here, warts and all.

Anagrammy

I was almost in your situation--except that the (Jack) Mormon guy I was engaged to caved in to family pressure and left me. They couldn't deal with having a mixed-race, tan-skinned cursed daughter of Cain whose ancestors were fence sitters in the pre-existence in the family. I didn't know whether to blame him, the religion, or both--it's been a while now and it took me a long time to get over it. I talked to a bishop once about it and he claimed to have never heard of the "Curse of Cain / less valiant" thing right in front of my face. And this was coming from a man who served his mission in 1978 when the priesthood ban was lifted. I was prepared to go through the motions and fake it but I would have never believed in any of it. It's all made up and leadership from the local level on up will lie and engage in wilful disbelief to get people to join or to keep people from leaving. Like North Korea or East Germany the Mormon cult isn't a good place to be if you think for yourself. The people here can help you find a way out.

It's tough to come to the conclusion that this church is false. Most people aren't here to bash. Most Mormons are good people, but the religion is not true. I agree to study that mormonthink.com website. I like you wanted both sides because I didn't want to read "anti". After reading that whole mormonthink site it became inevitable that the church wasn't true. Some people on this board can be extreme, but the majority of us are just trying to live normal lives. I left the church 7 months ago, good luck with it. If you need help don't be afraid to post.

Welcome to the board!

I prefer to see it in the Big Picture as one of thousands of God Myths created on supernatural, mystical claims with leaders and doctrine that present a kind of social, familial, traditional religious with unique language, music, costuming, buildings, in a large network that is generational and often the core of the particular group for a very long time.
Mormonism fits in that category.

Religious God Myths are not about factual evidence. They are about (generally) spiritual claims of a deity, and often a savior. They are about a spiritual witness that over rides, most often, any other kind of claim or evidence. They are subjective truths, generally territorial, and often have specific claims that are believed without empirical evidence but through an emotional attachment/bond.


Take a look at the history of the power of myth and the history of religion of the world.

Anyone can change their mind about their beliefs for any reason, or none. Category the religion anyway you want. Come up with your own ideas.

Do what you want. Use critical thinking skills and develop the skill of a skeptic.

"Dated a Mormon girl who wasn't particularly stout in her beliefs. She got me interested. I studied for months, some of the basic doctrines made more sense than I had given them credit. Started thinking."

Just have to know: Just exactly WHAT were you studying and just exactly WHAT were you thinking? I gather you must have limited your "study" to only those materials published or approved by the Mormon Church? If so, wouldn't that be better described as indoctrination rather than study?

One does not "study" their way into a cult, one is indoctrinated into a cult. Study, if it is done, is what will lead one out of a cult. The cult of mormonism is an easily discovered, blatant fraud. Do you not know that?

We all change throughout our lives...and this change often leads us in a new direction. The two of you are going in a different direction and it's uncomfortable...change is not easy..and it's not always about what you believe or don't believe...

My change led me away from my Mormon husband in the West to back to the Midwest...we are still friends but couldn't reconcile certain things..

I won't bash all Mormons...not at all...his parents treated me kindly...we were just young kids at the time...and in love..

You will go where your lives take you...and it sounds like you want it to be together...compromises will be made...but if the marriage is good make them.

Marriage is darn hard even if all goes well...believe me...Would I do things differently...in a heartbeat...wouldn't we all at times.

Hang in there and go with your gut feelings.

stormy

Jeff, you asked:

"And what do we do about the veiled threats regarding our responsibility due to our being endowed members, and all of that. If the church happened to be true...

That's a question worth asking to be honest. What, doctrinally, happens then? We go to a lesser kingdom when we die? Is that honestly a killer problem anyway? *shrug*"


Veiled threats? . . . I'm thinking you are younger, judging by the age of marriage/kids. So you got the lite endowment version . . . the "judgement of God" if you didn't keep them. And the threat of being in Satan's power if you didn't live up to all of the covenants that you made in the temple. Just be glad you didn't get to mime your own throat slashing or disembowling (my husband went to the temple pre-1990 and he got THAT version).

It was a big concern to me that I had made covenants and I am an honest person and wanted to keep my obligations. HOWEVER, once I came to the conclusion that the church was absolutely false, I realized that I had no obligation. They had no authority to speak for God, and God (if he existed) wouldn't want me to pledge my time, talents, and all that I had been blessed with or MAY be blessed with to a false church.

An analogy that worked for me was comparing the temple covenants to a contract. If you entered into a contract to buy something (like a piece of property that you had never seen, like a home in the celestial kingdom), using an intermediary or agent (the church), and then you found out that there WAS no celestial kingdom, or that the agent didn't have the legal authorization to sell that piece of real estate. . . would you be obligated to keep YOUR end of the agreement? NO, because the contract was fraudulent to begin with.

But if it's not true, none of the threats are going to happen. Anybody can make up really scary threats (there are worse ones than those found in Mormonism), but that doesn't give their beliefs any more validity.

And what if you are wrong? I asked that question for 9 months. I was terrified of being wrong. But I just kept studying all the issues from every angle until I was satisfied I had found the truth, and that gave me the courage to move on.

Irresistable.
The Mormon God is a white (as in Caucasian) male, with a Son and a second unnamed Spirit at his side. Seems to me that's barely a variation of the Trinity. If the term Trinity wasn't already taken, heck, we could call the Mormon Godhead the Trinity and it would fit just fine.
I mocked the Nicene Creed as a missionary, parroting some past GA's famous phrase about never-were-there-more-contradictions-in-so-few-words.
I pounce on this because I once thought the same thing. "It makes sense" was something I told myself about Mormonism too. But then later I realized that it was circular logic, that it sets up its own requirements, and answers itself.

You have a bad situation since a bishop is also your employer, concentrate on changing that ASAP.

Also, having a child always causes upheaval on many levels, even in very good marriages.
Realize that the Mormon church gives very bad advise in encouraging young couples to have children too soon - this often creates a financial burden they can't dig themselves out of.

You should also realize that Mormonism is based on fraud, no matter how nice and sincere some members are on the local level.

The Book of Mormon is a religious hoax. DNA clearly shows that the American Indians came from Asia, they are NOT Hebrews.

Any promises or "veiled threats" made by Mormons reps mean nothing. The Mormon "church" cannot deliver on anything it promises or implies. As you are slowly finding out.

Re: The trinity - I disagree that the two beliefs are that similar, but I agree wholeheartedly with you that the 'this makes sense' argument is starting to seem powered by circular logic. Sigh.

Re: Employment - unfortunately, given my degree/education scenario, or lack thereof, puts me in a bad job situation in this market. The company I'm with now has huge potential and I'm locked into a raise schedule that will get us onto our feet and get me some good job experience. I'm stuck here as long as he'll be civil to me - which he will - and I may just have to put up with... what was the term on exmo... "love bombs?" if we leave.

"Mormonism is based on fraud, no matter how nice and sincere some members are on the local level."
I guess if it's a fraud, it really doesn't matter what they believe. Heck, everyone up to the prophet COULD be sincere but if it's not true it's still a load of garbage, right...

Re: DNA evidence - another reason why we're stalling out of the TBM life, I guess - one of the many

And it put you in touch with someone who happened to help you.

It's as simple as that, like a third grade student who needs to be in that grade to learn important lessons and profit from a wise teacher. That doesn't mean anyone must stay in that grade forever. As they mature and are ready to run their own lives, they need to start doing that.

Remaining in the mormon church holds people back emotionally and mentally once they're ready to see how foolish much of it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2010 07:49AM by Cheryl.

That actually makes some sense.



FYI, I read/watched The Excommunication of Lyndon Lamborn via YouTube. Anyone seen this and have opinions? Much of what he said is pretty much the same as how I feel, and I assume that a lot of you have as well. It's interesting how members of a bishopric might have/did react though - someone is attacking my beliefs, and I feel as though they make sense? Drop into your shell and hold out your arm to support your bishop...

I'll be facing a church court, as will my wife, for our conduct while separated, as well as our being separated, and now for our apostasy, thrown in there, too, I'm sure. Maybe we should /quit before then, as the other thread is currently discussing re: excom

You absolutely should resign before that. Why should you let an organization punish you in the way that they deem appropriate? Why should you let them tell you how to live and how to feel and act, etc? It just didn't make sense to me after a while and I decided that I have enough maturity to be able to take responsibility for my own actions. My mother has told me a couple of times about my uncle's father who was excommunicated for something and it just about tore the family apart. Well, I'm sorry, but for starters, there's no telling if the family would've even known what he did if the church wasn't there to intercede in HIS life. That's one of the things that bothered me about the church a lot. It's just assumed that life just happens to you as a result of God screwing you over or blessing you. Take responsibility for YOURSELF and make things happen for YOU. You don't need life to be controlled by outside forces; you need to control it from inside. This concept has given me a lot of self-respect and motivation and a new view on life. I think it could be the same for you.

By the way, to answer your question, at least indirectly. Are Mormons good people? Yes, for the most part, they are. At least, when you fit the part. If you deviate, then you have no real guarantee. As for the other part of my answer, I would have to say again that they aren't bad, but they can be inauthentic and terribly misinformed, which can lead to inauthentic friendships and relationships. I never will be able to fit in with a lot of them anymore, but I still think they are good people in a lot of ways. The main thing that drives me insane is their manipulative and passive-aggressive behavior, which is not bad per se, cause they aren't necessarily directly hurting people. At the heart of the issue, I just want to be around people who act themselves and are authentic and sometimes their religion overrides that. Really, in the end, it's the religion that drives me bonkers, not the people. Post-temple Mormonism is sickening and I can't stand the division that garments represent and I also can't stand it when Mormons take the temple too literally. Just thought you might want to know. I at least wanted to state this for myself, cause it helps to separate the people and the religion, which is a good thing.

Help from Mormons comes at a high price.
He can't resign at the moment because his employer is also the bishop.

My suggestion would be to go back to school instead of dinking around in jobs at the mercy of Mormons.

Unfortunately, they had a child at the behest of the morg, which consderably narrows their options and their wiggle room.

I hope they can find a longterm solution and get the hell away from the bloodsucking cult, which wants 10% of their gross income no matter what the circumstances.

My temp solution is to start job hunting and/or looking for school options while sticking with current employment. Bishop/Boss has mostly gone silent on the church situation, hasn't pestered me to attend more often, come in for appt, etc - has kept our interactions professional, or friendly, and has left church out of it (Probably because he can't remember his own name if it isn't stapled to his head :D ) but this way I can be prepared, with outs, if the job situation becomes too idiotic to stay. Luckily our office manager has zero tolerance for religious pushing - he was trying to convert her - and he'd lose her (she's irreplacable, really) if he pushed too much with her, or with me, since she likes me and would stick up for me.
maybe a workable situation, idk.

FYI: I've realized since I stopped paying my tithing that 10% of not much, while, still not much, goes a long way towards helping our budget.

And to clarify, the decision to have a child when we did was dumb, and at the behest of a GA (who my bishop denies said any such thing - I printed a copy of that text today for him, we'll see what he says to that) - but I love her to death and of course would not give her up for anything. I'm not callous about it... just analyzing the past. If that makes sense.

Sooner or later you will have a blow-up with your bishop/mentor, prepare for the day!
I've seen your situations before.

Find solutions for your life that do not involve Mormonism and do what you have to do.

A belief system would not matter under normal circumstances. But Mormonism pushes people to make decisions against their own interests in order to benefit the church - this DOES matter a great deal.

It sounds like its just a matter of time it will play itself out. You are lucky the two of you are on the same path. Enjoy your wife and family. It sounds like you are confused as to whether its true or not still.

I think that my wife will go whichever way I go.

That in and of itself tells me that she really doesn't believe it, she's just been TBM all of her life and doesn't know differently. But she's already basically said she'll go if I go, if it's important to me, and she probably (prob) won't go if I stop.

I think some good things for you to look into would be first of all, as was recommended, http://www.mormonthink.com/. Also, I really think you should try out http://mormonstories.org/. It's a podcast that has some good guests (Grant Palmer, Todd Compton, Richard Bushman) and handles some good issues. Visit the site, look around, and download whatever looks interesting. The last thing I would recommend is another podcast that's like mormonstories - it's mormonexpressions; http://mormonexpressions.com/. Again, there is plenty of stuff to keep you busy...

Good luck. Truth Prevails.