For those of you who do not know me, I am a male exmo on the West Coast of the US.

Here are the questions:

What is the definition of sexism?

Has your journey out of Mormonism also been accompanied by a journey out of sexism? Please give specific examples, if you don't mind. (Probably more for the men, but I welcome all responses.)

Do you think Mormonism causes or encourages sexism?

T-Bone
PS. I realized the silliness of having a thread about sexism and asking only men to reply. I am glad I got the opportunity to remedy that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2012 01:12AM by T-Bone.

I may be an outlier in this..I had examples of strong and assertive women while growing up. My mother and grandmother raised us after dad basically ran off. I've never had an issue with assertive women or female supervisors.

Sexism to me is thinking of women as lesser. It is also reflected by things like males defining women's roles according to a patriarchal pattern like TSCC does. In fact this is a major reason I no longer like Mormonism.

I definitely have moved away from preconceptions planted in my mind not only by Mormonism, but also simply because of the fact that I'm older, and spent my childhood in the 1950's.

Mormonism by definition is sexist. It assigns roles to men and women rather than allowing them to define themselves. It attempts to correct or shame those who step outside their definitions. Organized religion in general is sexist.

I'm sure I have tendencies to be sexist because I am of a gender. We all probably do. I work on it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2012 01:50PM by rationalguy.

I am terribly sexist. I refuse to let my wife work, and myself put in about 60-70 hours per week so SHE can raise our kids, not some day care step-parent. Needless to say, she likes this arrangement very much. At the end of the day all I expect is a home cooked meal and clean clothes.

Seriously though, I never subscribed to that side of Mormonism. Perhaps because I wasn't raised in it. But I have definitely seen it in others. My dad, who wasn't fond of me joining Mormonism, would occasionally joke about the sexism. He knew guys he worked with who were MO, who's wives couldn't make a decision without consulting their husband. His running joke was how they were always on the phone consulting with their husbands about what type of toilet paper to use...(Not to be taken too literally)

Thanks for your reply.

I was called a sexist a few years ago by a guy when I told him my wife stays home with our child. He said I needed to evolve, grow up, etc.

Actually, on one of our first dates, my nevermo wife told me she grew up with a stay at home mother (sahm) and she wanted to be a sahm, too. That's one of the things I found attractive about her.

I guess somebody will probably call me sexist for being attracted to a woman who wanted to be a sahm. But I'm not here to win pointless arguments, just learn from other men's persepctives.

T-Bone

So is it sexist that my SIL stays at home and takes care of the kids while my daughter goes to work?

She's super smart and has a proffesional degree, they wanted kids and felt that parents should raise their kids, they can afford for one of them to stay home so why not.

I only think it's sexist if your wife wanted a career and you were a dirtbag and said absolutely not, you're staying home with the kids.

I'm a woman, so I'm not going to answer anything but this one: "So is it sexist that my SIL stays at home and takes care of the kids while my daughter goes to work?"

IMO, that is only sexist if it was not her choice. If that's what she wanted to do, then groovy for all of you.

Switch it around: Would it be sexist if she wanted to be a high-powered executive and you wanted to stay at home with the kids? How much crap do you think you'd both take if that had been your choice?

Carry on, you guys are great! :>D Sorry if I got any estrogen on ya! ;-)

Actually, after I posted this I realized we could gain a lot from a woman's perspective, so admittedly the part about making the thread for men only was not the best idea.

I would have to agree with what you and a few others said. If the woman wants a career, and the husband forbids it, that's just plain wrong.

If a woman wants to be a sahm, then more power to her. I also think it's sexist to critize a sahm for not having a career. I think the whole point of the women's rights movement was for women to have freedom of choice and not catch any grief for those choices. Any institutional, corporate, or personal roadblock is sexist. At the same time, telling a woman she HAS to work out of the home is antithetical to women's rights.

T-Bone

I agree with rational guy. Sexism, racism, and homophobia are the main reasons I don't like Mormonism.

T-Bone

My current wife was dumped by her TBM hubby in the middle of raising 4 kids. She is very assertive, yet TBM. We decided together that she should be a stay-at-home because I had sufficient income. She would have a very difficult time getting along with a classic patriarchal husband and that was a factor in her first marriage failing, though I doubt she would admit it. We decide everything mutually by negotiation and have little trouble getting along... And no, I don't feel "henpecked."

with reasonable exceptions made for differences that affect hygiene, medical treatment, etc., To me sexism is treating someone different based on their sex.

It is sexism for a man to say that women are inferior because they are women. It is also sexism for a woman to say that men are inferior because they are men.

I also think that gender roles, other than when pertaining to reproduction, are sexist.

Agreed.

What is the definition of sexism?
-Assigning characteristics or roles to people based on gender, as opposed to who they really are.

Has your journey out of Mormonism also been accompanied by a journey out of sexism?
-My journey out of sexism began several years before I left mormonism, but was definitely aided by the loss of the belief that men and women have inherent god-given roles.

Please give specific examples, if you don't mind.
-My father is very sexist, and has often told us kids about how he has been persecuted his entire life for telling people that he believes a woman's place is in the home (his very words). As I grew up and got to know different kinds of women, I realized that not all were cut out to be homemakers, and even fewer truly wanted to be. So I determined that it didn't matter if church leaders thought my wife should stay at home, I was going to encourage her to do whatever she pleased. However, I still thought that childbirth somehow balanced out not being allowed to take leadership positions in church. Leaving the church helped me see how much sexism I was still holding on to.

Do you think Mormonism causes or encourages sexism?
-Causes, definitely yes. Encourages, not officially, but indirectly yes.

Thank you for your very thoughtful reply.

T-Bone

The day the new prophetess receives her keys, I'll stop calling TSCC sexist.

as well as my good nonmo friends--she stayed home with the kids (and her kids were 16 years apart). Once he graduated from college, she stayed home and has never worked since.

My boss--a mormon--her husband is a SAHF--she runs the company I work for and he raises the kids. He isn't treated well by mormons.

SAHF's are rarely treated well by society.

I have a friend who is an artist, through and through. He has a studio at home. He takes care of their darling children. His wife is an accountant and very much a corporate type. You couldn't imagine two totally different people, but they make it work.

However, when they go to office functions, he is treated horribly. People ask him what it's like to live off of his wife, and when he's going to give up his childish dreams and get a real job.

His wife is very successful and makes well over 6 figures. Probably closer to $200k. But what her stuck up friends don't realize is that the husband makes millions. His wife dosen't even need to work, but she has this thing for numbers and spread sheets.

I have another buddy who is a successful studio musician. He is well-paid and highly regarded in the music business. He lives with his VERY corporate gf. He is up late at night, and sleeps 'til noon. So people assume he's a drunken freeloader. He's neither.

None of the friends mentioned are TBM, and they do not have TBM friends. In fact they are in LA. But even as progressive as CA is, they still get grief from people.

Is it sexist for people to treat a man like crap because he has a successful wife/gf? My guess would be yes.

T-Bone

Cl2,
We are close acquaintances; although, you may not realize this. I am Cl20 short for Hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane. This is my family name. We are from the location of Lampo Junction near that mostly defunct, run down, and mismanaged area called Thiokol. You probably don’t know where that is. I’m told that Thiokol was consecrated by Saint E. D. Brown via. divine revelation. I was seen scuba diving by the desk of a cute clerk for Saint ED. That might have been you.
If So,
I Have Never Forgotten You My Friend Cl2
Long in the tooth Cl20

What is the definition of sexism?
- Treating someone different because of what is between their legs and not by their abilities. Sometimes judging by someones abilities will be seen as sexist.

Has your journey out of Mormonism also been accompanied by a journey out of sexism?
-Thats a hard one. I was a convert at 18 having been raised by a single mother who hated men, she is hetero tho. At the time I didn't think that the teachings of TSCC were innately sexist. I knew LDS men who I thought interpreted their traditional role because of TSCC teachings. I don't think leaving TSCC has had an effect on my views at all some of which would probably be considered sexist by many. I still would love to have a wife who would be willing to be a stay home with our kids.

Please give specific examples, if you don't mind.
-I had a mormon family as neighbors right after I got home from the mission. He was an asshole to his wife. He was very controlling. He kept insisting they have more kids, and he insisted that she home school. He told me this and saw nothing off about it. He was well respected in the ward.



Do you think Mormonism causes or encourages sexism?
-I think they allow it to happen and continue. I think if it was more socially acceptable the women would be kept on a tighter leash.