Without going into unnecessary personal details, I was in "Zion Country" recently and heard the following (often expressed with heartfelt, sincere emotion, sometimes accompanied by tears) from my loved ones and their similarly-devoted Mormon friends:

From a family relative: "I hear you are now active in the Church."

My response: (long pause and polite smile). "That is not true. Who did you hear that from?"

The family relative: "From [a member of your family]."

My reply: (polite smile). "That is not true."
_____


From a family member : "Now is the time for you to come back to the Church."

My reply: (I hugged this family member and didn't respond)
_____


From a family member: "Are you going to be baptized again?"

My response: "No."

The family member: "But you are an example to [others in the family]."

My response: "I am not going to be baptized again."

The family member: "I think something will happen where you will be baptized again."
_____


From a family member: "Did you feel the presence of [another family member] in the temple?"

My response: (confused, long pause)

The family member: "Oh, that's right, you were not in the temple for the wedding."
_____


From a family member: "Would you please say the prayer?"

My response: "I think you are good at giving the prayers."

The family member: "Please say the prayer."

My response: "I think you are good at giving the prayers."
_____


From a Mormon friend of my family: "It's OK to come back to the Church, Steve."

My response: (polite smile and silence)

The Mormon friend of my family: "It is OK for you to come back to the Church."

My response: (polite smile and silence)
_____


In an earlier visit to "Zion Country," a family member privately took me aside and told me that they had had a dream in which they saw me in the Mormon temple dressed in temple clothes and looking around in the Celestial Room. This, I was informed, was an answer from God to them and to me that--somehow, some way, some day--I would eventually come back to the Mormon Church.

I politely responded that while I understood their reasons for sharing that dream with me, I was not coming back to the Mormon Church.

***********


It never ends--and, frankly, it is beginning to frustrate and even anger me.

(As a sidenote, when I jettisoned the Mormon Church on my own volition some 20 years ago, I received condemnatory letters from some family members, caustically judgmental comments from others and written warnings prior to my departure from still others. Over time, one family member has apologized for their contribution to that kind of reaction, while the others have generally kept their lips zipped. I still have occasional Mormon religion-related discussions with a few of my TBM family members, as they bring up Mormon religion-related subjects. They make their Mormon religion-related points but when I respond to those points with my contrary, non-Mormon views, they then tell me to be quiet and/or to get over it. I proceed to remind them that they brought up the religious element in the first place, but that does not seem to resonate).

In the Mormon Church world (at least among the true believers as I have experienced it). there is no room for them ceding turf; in fact. they are often guilty of personal trespass on to my turf.

Sadly, personal boundaries and individual decisions made by those who leave the Mormon Church are not considered to be "sacred" or "worthy" of respect, even when those personal boundaries and individual decisions have been clearly established and stated.

I am getting increasingly tired of this constant, unrelenting "Mormon-love" bombardment. I think that perhaps in the future I will be more specific in my responses, in order to more clearly emphasize my rights and reasons to my own ground.

I, of course, realize that despite any expressed objection on my part, some sincerely over-zealous member of my family will probably dead-dunk me once I've kicked the proverbial bucket. Since when have the personal wishes of non-Mormons deterred determined Mormons from their metaphorical exercise in ungodly grave robbing? Just ask the relatives of necro-dunked Nazi-massacred Jews.

If only Mormons would love my personal space as much as they say they love me.

For my part, I love my family but I hate their proselytizing.



Edited 38 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2012 11:12PM by steve benson.

My family still sends the missionaries to my door. I am 51 and left when I was 18.

But their cult is SOOO wonderful. If only you'd join, you'd LOVE IT!!!

What?!? You left?!? What's wrong with you?!?

Come back!!! It'll be different this time! I won't hit you or yell at you or anything!

if you are going to change the dialog.

I had a relative give me a Dallin Oaks book recently. She is one who I have explicitly told how I feel about the lds church. At least she said to my daughter when she purchased it, 'I guess I shouldn't sign it in the cover as she may want to give it to someone else.' Hey, maybe I should go return it to DB!!!

you just need queue cards, you hold them up to whom ever is postulating \

first card

DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?

SECOND CARD

DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?

THIRD

ARE YOU THAT STUPID?

FORTH CARD

I WILL GET BACK TO YOU WHEN THE MOTHER SHIP LANDS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2012 11:09PM by Bal.

My wife and I have about 160 close TBM relatives (yes, 160). For me, if I'm not blunt with them up front then they always take it as weakness or uncertainty on my part and they think they can start preaching to me and THAT really pisses me off so I figure I'm doing them and me a service by being blunt.

Also, I have the ability to say just about anything, not matter how blunt, without it coming across as rude. I always say it with a smile and not a hint of anger. It catches them off guard.


"It's OK to come back to the Church".

My response: I'm sure it is but I really don't believe in it and I'm just not interested.

"I hear you are now active in the Church."

My response: WHAT??? (laughing) Uhhhhh, I'm certainly active but not in the church or any religion for that matter.

Now is the time for you to come back to the church!

My response (again laughing): How do you know it's not time for you to leave the churhc? Seriously, we will gladly welcome you into the Bright side of life.

The only thing worse than mormon hate is mormon love Lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2012 08:43PM by Mormoney.

They cannot imagine a world where the church is not true. They fail to comprehend that you truly do not believe, and will never believe because you have found truth. They all believe that deep down you still know the church is true, and will someday come back, so why not make it now.

My husband was in an extensive email conversation with an LDS coworker and former bishop. Above all, he kept asking sithlord to pray, read the scriptures, and keep his temple covenants. What??

I told sithlord he was wasting his time. He concurred.

The incessant nagging would be maddening for sure!

twojedis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They cannot imagine a world where the church is
> not true. They fail to comprehend that you truly
> do not believe, and will never believe because you
> have found truth. They all believe that deep down
> you still know the church is true, and will
> someday come back, so why not make it now.

That's exactly it. They will tell you that deep inside your spirit still knows the truth. They really believe in the Holy Ghost bearing witness to you, if only you could be humbled enough to listen. So they're sure that will happen ... someday.

I can hear the voices in their heads.

"He was born into it! He's the grandson of a prophet, he can't just quit and be ok with that. Deep down he knows its true. He'll come back. I'll just tell him it's ok now. We're ready to let him back in. I'll remind him of what he missed out on at the wedding."


And on and on and on. As i'm sure you know, they don't believe you will stay gone. I can't remember which prophet said it (Benson?), but some thing to the effect of if parents live a righteous life their children WILL be with them in the CK. They will have no choice they will be saved through temple sealings.

So with that little tid bit dancing in their heads they will continue to bombard you. They honestly believe that you have no choice but to come back. Who will be the one to get the credit for bringing you back in? You know it will happen eventually. You have no say in the matter. They really think that's how it all works. Even if you succeed in silencing them, you will still hear their thoughts by the looks on their faces, the innuendo, the prayers directed at you.

Alas I'm afraid it will never end until the end.

Does anyone know the church's policy on baptizing the dead who resigned from the church or were exed?

Sad to say, Steve, but I'm glad to be fully estranged from my Mormon family, if only for the peace. When they pressure you like that, it's contention. Not peace at all.

Steve, did any of your family handle your leaving the church gracefully?

Over time, one family member has apologized for their contribution to that kind of reaction, while the others have generally kept their lips zipped.

I still have occasional Mormon religion-related discussions with a few of my TBM family members, as they bring up Mormon religion-related subjects. They make their Mormon religion-related points but when I respond to those points with my contrary, non-Mormon views, they then tell me to be quiet and/or to get over it. (I proceed to remind them that they brought up the religious element in the first place, but that does not seem to resonate).

In the Mormon Church world (at least among the true believers as I have experienced it). there is no room for them ceding turf; in fact. they are often guilty of personal trespass on to my turf.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2012 09:29PM by steve benson.

We are finding that with our TBM friends. We don't start the topic unless they ask what happened to us. We tell them in a nutshell that we don't believe that God would choose a man with the character of Joseph Smith as a prophet. If they ask more, we tell them more. At some point, most of them just say they know the church is true because of some spiritual experience or other, in spite of the facts. We have found it's best to just move on at that point. Waste of breath. I know we have some people thinking, though. Couples like us just don't do this sort of thing.

Just Get Over It: I find those four words to be exceptionally irritating. They show a marked lack of understanding or sensitivity. Hence the immediate and often passionate response here at RfM when a TBM or sympathizer says to exmos: Just get over it. Move on. (The latter being two more words that are irritating beyond endurance).

First, I say why. Why should we "just get over it"? And secondly, how do people move on when Mormonism is in their family, in their life, in their face. When Mormon relatives can't give their non-church-member space, as Steve eloquently expresses it, how does the non-member "move on" or "get over it"? It's often the Mormons who can't get over it or move on when a former member isn't interested in returning to Mormonism.

Being a short term convert with no Mormon family members, I don't have this particular problem in my life but there are parallels that help me to understand what it might be like. Quite a long while back I had some longstanding negative issues arising from family members' choices and expectations and needs. It was difficult to deal with it at the time and actually caused me to experience PTSD symptoms shortly after that time and recurring since whenever a "trigger" occurs, even something that is unrelated but similar. This helps me to understand why "move on" is an insensitive and unrealistic expectation. When a life experience has been tough or traumatic and has left wounds, it can stay with us forever. Like scars, it can heal but only to a certain extent. Even the best scar can ache or itch in certain circumstances a long time after the wound that caused it.

Sad but true that people in fundamentalist-type groups are so wrapped up in the church that they can't see past it. Their gatherings aren't places of respite but rather excuses to proselytize for new members or nag ex-members. Their beliefs and doctrines usurp any that the ex-member may have, thus their tendency to ignore your feelings and wishes and stated preferences and principles.

I also find it difficult to "criticize" friends and family, which makes it sometimes hard to state my own feelings and beliefs, especially if it's about why people should try to see things from the other's point of view (i.e., the ex's viewpoint rather than the church's party line). I imagine it would be even more difficult if everyone knew my identity and that of my family, such as with Steve, who posts under his own name (how could he not - his story is instantly recognizable).

I too admire the patience of those who get nagged at every family event when they have clearly and repeatedly stated their position. It is sad but true that the inculcated ones don't "hear" what is said if it's not the religious package they have chosen to believe. In many situations like this, you have to just save your breath unless you have the energy to go around the mulberry bush again - and again.

So, instead of their advice to "just get over it" or "move on", my advice is "save your breath", as Steve exhibited at this particular gathering. There isn't much you can do when someone's mind is made up and closed to new thoughts.

Besides, gatherings, especially parties, aren't supposed to be about doctrine! Hopefully, for the most part everyone can still find a way to enjoy each other's company. Time is precious and everybody's space should be respected. Why don't the Mormon prophets and leaders emphasize that thought more - it's in one of their Articles of Faith after all. The thought that everybody is free to choose their own path is similar to the principle of giving/respecting space. It shouldn't be that hard to understand, or to accomplish, to ensure that clan get-togethers are enjoyable for all, no matter their beliefs or choices. Sadly, that's not the case in so many situations.

The Family Church - it more often than not stands in the way of families being together - what a joke - except who's laughing. :(

I sincerely admire your ability to remain cordial in the face of such repeated comments. I wonder, though, if you would do even better to politely smile, then walk away. (Or say "Excuse me" and get up and walk away if seated next to your tormentor--I mean, um, concerned relative.)

I admire you for being able to tolerate that many intrusive interactions and not trying to teach them lessons they will never understand.

They really don't know any better or about anything else.

I've come to the conclusion that relatives or not, some people are just too stupid to talk to.

You're a very patient man, Steve.

I was thinking today that even if the Celestial Kingdom happened to be a real place, I would have no interest in it. Why? Because the only inhabitants would be Mormons. How boring would that be? I want a little more diversity and variety in my afterlife, should that exist.

Of coure it would only be Mormons. That is the only group Mormons associate with now.

My MORmON family members know better than to talk to me about the church in any reproving kind of way, because when the topic comes up, I get out my seer stone (lap top computer) and let LDS leaders do the talking for me. It makes it very hard to argue against.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6mtf1_-rx4

Steve, you have great patience and are careful with your words. I am afraid I would not do as well if I were you. I love the stories people say about the family members declaring they had had dreams of the exmormon in the Temple or the exmormon by the bedside giving a blessing (all Mormon again), etc. It is so ridiculous to not honor a person's boundary. Good luck being a bit more firm...if you choose to. And lucky I LOVE what you do. That is super.

Tell them ALL!!!!!!


Don't worry about me. I'm fine AND happy...now STFU and leave my (lack of) faith alone......

It is quite unfortunate that your entire ancestry is so Pro-Mo. Unfortunate for you. I agree that you need to not be so polite. Get down and dirty with your responses. There is no reason why you need to live in anger because they won't leave it alone.
I wonder if the relative who had the dream of you in the temple in the temple garb noticed that you were holding a gas can and matches? Kidding!
Anyway, I do want to talk to you about a matter concerning the church and a bishop that ripped me off. I just don't know how to get in touch with you withuot leaving my email on here. Any ideas?

You can leave the church but the church can't leave you alone.

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> In an earlier visit to "Zion Country," a family
> member privately took me aside and told me that
> they had had a dream in which they saw me in the
> Mormon temple dressed in temple clothes and
> looking around in the Celestial Room. This, I was
> informed, was an answer from God to them and to me
> that--somehow, some way, some day--I would
> eventually come back to the Mormon Church.

"How interesting! Because I had a very similar dream. I dreamed
that you were at a meeting of the Ex-Mormon Foundation giving
a talk on how false Mormonism was. Maybe someday that dream will
come true."

ZING! Oh I wish I could be that witty in the moment!

in a gentle way, and more firmly if they don't get it.

"It's never going to happen, so you don't need to trouble yourself about it."


Another possibility is that you could write an article, or editorial about your experience and your reaction to it. 10 to 1, it would get back to the family and maybe they'd back off. And maybe it would help OTHER Mormons learn to be more sensitive.

All I can say is I'm glad I'm not you, and I'm sorry you have to put up with that $#!t.

Best wishes.

I can't imagine the toll this has taken on you over 20 years.

I'm not nearly so diplomatic as you are. I never will be. I could not handle the endless chronic spoonfuls of mormon relatives being forced fed to me, with a spoonful of sugar of course.

All I can think of is your family is genuinely much more loving and mentally healthy than mine. Add to that your ability to take what they dish out. I don't know how you do it.

In the end I hope that it's the best road for you. Maybe if I had the ability to be more of a schmoozer, and had a bit more charisma my life would have went smoother. At what cost, I don't know.

My mothers loudest lament is that she could never control me. I used to think that was a huge flaw in me. Now I see it as a trait that has saved my life and my sanity over and over. I've been kicking against being controlled by a church for most of my life. It's only recently I realized it was the church, and their hostages that i've been standing up to. For years (50?) I've been demanding some sane and sensible answers. For years i've been told to be quiet and know God.

If there is a God, he has no part in this. I most likely won't live a long extended life. But, i'm not distraught over that. I'm sooo happy that i'm not spending the last bits of my life giving it away to the mormon church. I've been instrumental in bringing my husband and children out. That's a huge comfort to me. I won't have any grandchildren that are mormon. Nothing makes me happier.

I can't do much about the rest of the family, but my very own, will not be held enslaved to the guilt, and lies of mormonism.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2012 11:53PM by Mia.

something along the lines of:

"Well, I'll probably never return because I was sooooo very offended so often, and I just am simply toooo lazy to live the commandments, expecially when I just want to be sinning aaaaall of the time. So I guess that about covers it then. How about this chip dip -- isn't it fabulous??"