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Posted by: vor ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 01:44AM

Ok, so a few weeks ago after reading some things on here as well as doing some additional research, I started talking to my wife about some of the things I was not happy with about the church. Her response was that she was fine with my questioning, but that she could never handle it if I were to go inactive (let alone leave the church) She made it clear that this would be a deal breaker in our marriage. It's funny because for our 15 years of marriage, I have been the "strong one" as far as church callings, making sure we attended meetings, etc. while she has been the "strong one" as far as things in our home such as family prayer, scriptures, and family home evening. So from the wards standpoint, they think I am this spiritual giant, and reality is that she is the strong one in our family.

Lately I have been finding ways to get out of or just not be apart of ward activities or extra meetings. But all through this she has always been the one to come home after sacrament meeting while me and our kids attended sunday school, priesthood, primary etc. She has been more lax than I. Letting kids play on sunday outside (forbidden in my home growing up). Yet if I try to take a Sunday off, she drops the guilt trip of "example to our kids" on me.

But through all this, she insists that the church is true, just some of the people are just human. Today I thought was a breakthrough we were watching a movie and as we were going through our DVD's I came across the Emma Smith movie and my wife says "not that one, I can't stand hearing about how Joseph treated her". Well my ears perked up and I asked what she meant and she went on about the whole leaving her alone with the kids, the whole poligamy thing, and the whole time I am thinking about great, she is starting to see things I am. She then ends it by saying "well, I know that Joseph saw what he saw in the grove, but I just don't agree with how he lived in other areas, but he was human and it doesn't change the fact that the church is true." I didn't want to get into a deep discussion and risk having her defend the church to me again.

I guess I am just wondering, what is the next step I should take? Have any of you had similar opportunities with your spouse on helping them see that if you don't believe, or agree with some major issues in a persons life, you need to be open to the possibilites that perhaps other "truths" may not be what they seem? I don't want to push this as I have seen how she responds when I openly question the church, but I want her to come to this on her own so that we can make this a joint decision. Any help would be appreciated.

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Posted by: Prophetess ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 02:04AM

I know an exmormon couple that were in your situation - the husband stopped believing before the wife. He kept going to church to make her happy, even though she knew what he really thought about it. Eventually she got out too. I thought it was sweet that he showed her their marriage was more important than religion.

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Posted by: vor ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 01:16PM

Thanks. I guess the fact that she is even at this stage is progress.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 02:18AM

I wouldn't push it too much, but I might consider asking her why an all-knowing God would pick someone like Joseph to restore his church. Surely in 2000 years he could have found someone with a little more self control who wouldn't start polygamy and lie to everyone about it. Then let her mull it over for a while and see what happens.

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Posted by: Summer ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 02:19AM

vor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She then ends it by saying "well, I know that Joseph saw what he saw in the grove, but I just don't agree with how he lived in other areas, but he was human and it doesn't change the fact that the church is true."

Does she know about the multiple first vision accounts?

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Posted by: vor ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 01:18PM

are any of them found in "approved" lds literature? If not, she wants nothing to do with them. If they are, I would love to track them down as the only version I have is the one contained in his history in the BOM.

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Posted by: Summer ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 06:38PM

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/firstvisionjosephsmith1832.htm

Other than that, you be the judge. You can google "different (or various) first vision accounts" and get quite a bit.

Try these sources:

http://www.mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm

(A comparison chart of first vision accounts:) http://www.ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/firstvision.html

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Posted by: amos ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 01:19PM

Be honest and blunt.
"I found out the church isn't true and I can't/won't fake it".
But reaffirm your commitment to the family.
"I love you and the kids more than ever, so you'll have to be the one that does the leaving".

My wife told me "I'll only take so much".
So much what?

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 05:14PM

I'll only take so much truth!

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 04:01PM

claims of Joseph Smith Jr. The metaphysical, supernatural events are accepted as core beliefs as true and valuable as other kinds of claims - factual, scientific, etc.

The power of the spiritual witness cannot be ignored.
Some never, ever let go. It's cemented into their belief system and hermetically sealed against onslaught.

Some, however, will allow themselves to break the code to the spiritual witness aka testimony, usually, little by little.

My suggestion is always to go very slowly when dealing with major changes in religious views and beliefs. There is a familial core all ready in place that the believer helped to create. Dismantling it can be disastrous.

The most important thing to do though is to make the partner and the relationship much, much more important than anything else. Little by little, cement that relationship with a lot more attention, more talking, more appreciation, more manifestations of love.

There needs to be something to fall back on if the core religious belief system falls apart. The marriage relationship can handle that if it's strong and healthy.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 06:16PM

a gazillion other religions in the history of humanity.
But, religion has too often given the word: myth, a bad name - another four letter word! :-)

That is why I like the book: The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers. Puts Mormonism in the Big Picture.

Sometimes the tactic of: oh, look at this, did you know that ________ (fill in the Blank)......?
Sometimes that will peak some interest in helping your partner to understand your position better.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 05:11PM

Her comment, "well, I know that Joseph saw what he saw in the grove, but I just don't agree with how he lived in other areas, but he was human and it doesn't change the fact that the church is true" shows she isn't interested in facts (yet).

First of all, she "knows" no such thing. She simply believes what she wants about what JS saw.

Second, the fact he was such a "human" in other parts of his life should very well make her question his claims.

She wants the church to be true. She isn't able to recognize that JS had a pattern of con artist behavior from his youth to his death.

The fact that your wife would pick the church over you shows she is deeply emotionally invested and unable to incorporate reason.

I suggest you move slowly. If she figures out her life would be worse without you and life on Sundays is more rewarding as a family doing things together than going through the church rat race maybe she will let up. If she fears you are falling away, a common response is to become more dogmatic. If she does this, push family church study and get her to read In Sacred Loneliness" with you. Start getting her to think about what JS really taught and what his motivations really were. Suggest it is suspicious that a god's agenda would match those of a "human" con man.

Also, push the inequality of women. Tell her it bothers you to see that she is taught that god requires a male middle man for her salvation. Tell her it is not OK that she can't hold the priesthood and that you see the gender assignments as the result of men wanting to keep women at home under their control. The concept that heaven is about men having unlimited power, eternal sex (and possibly multiple women) and worlds without end should raise red flags. Men think women would want to be having babies eternally, assisting their husbands. This too is a male interpretation of what heaven would be. Seriously, the whole plan of salvation sounds like human whimsy and not the plan of a god.

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Posted by: The 1st FreeAtLast ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 06:52PM

From a post I did earlier this year:

"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." -- Thomas Paine, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America, intellectual, philosopher, and writer.

One of the best ways of cracking open Mormons' 'faith' is to reveal to them the fact that Joseph Smith (JS) was a liar, manipulator, adulterer and pedophile.

The LDS Church's section summary for D&C 132, the 'revelation' on polygamy written (down) by JS just over 166 years ago, says:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

According to LDS scripture, two key polygamy "principles" were:

i. A Mormon priesthood holder could desire and marry only virgins who were "vowed to no other man" (i.e., not betrothed to a fiancée, or married).
ii. The first wife (Emma, in JS' case) had to give her consent to the plural marriage.

The scripture in question was D&C 132:61:

"And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61)

In the case of 11 women that 'prophet' and Mormon Church president Joseph Smith made his plural wives, they were already vowed to their husband, and as married women, certainly not virgins (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/).

"...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else." The 11 women belonged to their husband.

JS committed adultery at least 11 times (12, actually, when you include his extra-marital affair with teenager Fanny Alger, servant girl in the Smith home; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

The LDS Church has a partial list of the married women, single women, and teenage girls that JS made his plural wives on the church's genealogy website at http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

Enter Smith's first and last name, birth year (1805) and birth place (Vermont, United States). Click on Search. Then click on the underlined Joseph Smith (Ancestral File 1). Scroll down to see the partial list of his plural wives. Note when he (at age 37) married Helen Mar Kimball (May 1843) and her age by clicking on her name (she was just 14).

JS' marriage to Fanny Alger can be viewed on the church's FamilySearch.org website by entering her first and last name, marriage year to JS (1835) and selecting "United States" and "Ohio" from the drop-down menus, and clicking on Search, then continuing from there.

Why did Joseph Smith make married women his plural wives - committing adultery in the process - when the Lord forbade it, and did so not just once or twice, but 11 times? Why wasn't he excommunicated for adultery?

The Mormon Church and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations that adultery is a 'sin' next to murder and any church member who has committed adultery does not have the Holy Ghost with him/her and cannot receive revelation from God.

JS disobeyed the 'revealed' word of God (directly to him, no less) every time he desired, pursued and married a married Mormon woman. In the case of at least one of them, Sylvia Lyon (married to Windsor Lyon), JS fathered her daughter:

“On January 27, 1844 her [Sylvia’s] only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”. (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm)

In May 1843, JS made a 14-year-old, two 17-year-olds and a 19-year-old his plural wives. The 14-year-old, Helen Mar Kimball, was his youngest-yet plural wife, as the genealogy data on the list of JS' plural wives on FamilySearch.org shows.

One wonders why, of all the single women in Nauvoo who were in their 20s and 30s, JS pursued and married teenage girls young enough to be his daughters and other men's wives.

On July 12, 1843, just two months after JS married the teenage girls mentioned above, he wrote down a 'divine' death threat ("threat of destruction") directed at his first and only legal wife, Emma (who was Relief Society president) if she didn't accept his plural wives, remain with him, "cleave unto" him, and accept polygamy. D&C 132:52 and 54:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those [plural wives] that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure [virgins] before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law [polygamy].

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/52#54)

How extraordinarily convenient for JS that the Lord was willing to turn a blind eye to his adultery (no rebuke, no revelation that he should be excommunicated), and back him up in his practice of polygamy by threatening to kill (destroy) Emma if she didn't get on JS' polygamy 'wagon' pronto!

According to the 'revelation' on polygamy that JS wrote down on July 12, 1843, the reason for plural marriage was to get virgins pregnant so that they would bear children, thereby increasing God’s glory:

“But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/63#63)

In JS' day, the only way for Mormon women and teenage girls to "bear the souls of men" was to become pregnant through sexual intercourse (human artificial insemination wasn't developed until the 1940s).

Gaining access to females who could "multiply and replenish the earth" was important to JS. In the case of 16-year-old Lucy Walker, whose mother died after the Walker family converted to Mormonism and moved to Nauvoo in the spring of 1841, he separated the teenage girl from her father (by sending him away on a 2-year mission to the Eastern United States) and her surviving siblings (her sister, Lydia, had died only months before of “brain fever”) by placing her siblings with families in Nauvoo and ‘inviting’ the unsuspecting girl to live in the home of ‘the Prophet’ (himself).

“While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

“Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.”’ (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm)

Not informing Emma of his latest plural marriage and first obtaining Emma’s consent was a violation of the Lord’s commandment to JS: “…if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61).

Secretly marrying Lucy Walker was not the first time that JS did not obtain Emma’s consent (she discovered her husband and teenage servant girl Fanny Alger having sex in the barn and complained to Mormon Apostle Oliver Cowdery, Joseph’s second cousin and BoM scribe, about her husband’s extra-marital affair; Fanny was sent away by Emma because the teenage girl was “was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet”, in other words, Fanny’s swelling womb; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

2. In the BoM, in Jacob 2:24, it says:

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2/24#24)

However, in the 'revelation' on polygamy that Joseph Smith wrote down on July 12, 1843, it says (in verse 1):

"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines"
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

How is it that in the BoM, the Lord, who according to scripture is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, condemned as "abominable" the practice of David and Solomon of having wives and concubines, but then contradicted himself in the 'revelation' on polygamy to JS by saying he "justified" (i.e., approved of) the practice?

Answer: When JS WROTE the BoM prior to its publication in 1830, he had only one wife: Emma. But in July 1843, when he wrote down the 'revelation' on polygamy that supposedly came from 'the Lord' (into his mind), he had several plural wives (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/). In July 1843, Joseph Smith had forgotten what he wrote about David and Solomon and their practice of having wives and concubines 13+ years earlier.

3. Quote in LDS Apostle Russell Nelson's article, "A Treasured Testament", in the July 1993 Ensign (the article is online at www.lds.org; use the Search function to find it):

"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

Why hasn't the LDS Church taught members and potential converts about Smith's 'magical'-rock-and-hat BoM 'translation' technique? The answer is obvious: Who would remain a member and who would join if they knew the truth?!

Why were the gold plates even needed, since Joseph Smith's 'peep' stone clearly did the job as far as 'translating' the BoM is concerned?! The huge problem is that it says in the BoM (and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations) that 'the Lord' commanded BoM 'prophets' to keep an account of what was going on during their lives as well as teachings and doctrines.

But according to the quote in Nelson's article, there was no gold plate in JS' hat, only the 'magical' rock ('seer' stone) that mysteriously emitted "something resembling parchment" upon which one character at a time would appear. There are 1,150,219 characters in the BoM, which means that it took JS nearly a year (at eight hours per day) of putting his face in his hat and calling out the characters to his scribe to 'translate' the BoM. Why don't church pictures show him doing so?

4. A Seer Stone and a Hat - "Translating" the Book of Mormon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPnu0bx3oWg

5. For generations, a fundamental Book of Mormon (BoM) 'truth' was the following: "Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the Record of the People of Nephi; and also of the Lamanites; written to the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the House of Israel;" (ref. http://www.inephi.com/1.htm).

However, in light of DNA evidence of the past 20 years that has consistently shown that the ancestors of Native Americans came from northeast Asia and not from ancient Israel/Judea, as described in the BoM, the LDS Church has officially abandoned its 'truth' - taught to millions of church members and potential converts since JS' day - that American Indians are Jewish in origin (via Laman and Lemuel, who came from Jerusalem with Lehi, Sariah, Laman, Lemuel, and other Jewish family members).

Here is what the Introduction of 19th- to 20th-century editions of the BoM, including the 1981 edition that many Latter-day Saints living today used in church and at home, said (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the PRINCIPAL ancestors of the American Indians."

Here is what JS wrote in March 1842 in a letter to John Wentworth, editor and proprietor of the Chicago Democrat newspaper:

"In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country."

(ref. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c26876e6ffe0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD)

Here is what the LDS Church is now saying (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are AMONG the ancestors of the American Indians."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/introduction)

"...among the ancestors of the American Indians" clearly implies that there were other ancient people(s) who were also the ancestors of Native Americans, which is, of course, exactly what scientists concluded (no evidence exists to support the Mormon idea of Jewish ancestry of American Indians).

The HUGE problem for the LDS Church is that for the BoM to be true, the ancestors of Native Americans have to be Jewish/come from ancient Israel/Jerusaleum, as described in the BoM."

The chief problem with Mormonism is that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Science has proven that the 'keystone' of the LDS religion, the Book of Mormon, is a work of fiction (see the links below for details). Mormonism founder Joseph Smith, Jr. repeatedly failed to relate and even write a reasonably consistent version of his so-called 'First Vision' experience (see the link below). JS kept getting his age, the place, what he saw, and other major elements of the 'First Vision' wrong. Rational people don’t believe a ‘witness’ who tells versions of their ‘true’ story that conflict with versions previously told by the individual. People who won’t use their critical thinking and scrutinize what they’ve been told often do believe ‘charismatic’ types.

According to LDS Church presidents Ezra Benson and Gordon Hinckley in Gen. Conf. talks in Oct. 1986 and Oct. 2002 (online at www.lds.org), Mormonism stands or falls on the BoM being true (historically and in all other respects) and the First Vision having taken place (as per the official church version that has been taught to millions of members and potential converts). The facts are clear: Mormonism falls (the websites linked below provide many of these facts).

All religions, including Mo-ism, are the product of people's imagination (Joseph Smith, in the case of the Mormon religion, with 'spiritual' ideas from other Mormon 'prophets' being layered on during the past 7-8 generations since 1830).

You're not obliged to mentally regurgitate other people's 'spiritual' ideas, what they believe and feel is 'true', and demonstrable nonsense (there's lots of it in cultic Mormonism!).

You have the right to ALWAYS think for yourself and scrutinize what other people, including adult Mormons, have told you is 'true', 'right', 'the will of God', etc. You also have the right to reject all beliefs - religious or otherwise - that are not supported by the facts.

Latter-day Saints fail to understand that truth is independent of what the LDS Church says and what Mormons believe is 'true' when their 'truths' are not supported by solid evidence. Very importantly, their emotions - and emotion-based beliefs - are not an INFALLIBLE guide to the truth.

Here are very good resources that you can study to educate yourself about Mormonism and its history:

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (by former BYU history professor Dr. D. Michael Quinn): http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

The Changing World of Mormonism: http://www.utlm.org/navonlinebooks.htm

To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

PBS FRONTLINE + American Experience: "The Mormons" (4-hour documentary film aired on PBS in '07 that includes excerpts from interviews with President Gordon Hinckley, Mormon Apostles Boyd Packer and Jeffrey Holland and member of the First Quorum of the Seventy and church historian Marlin Jensen): http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

101 Doubts about Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/101.htm

Contradictions in Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/contra.htm

Rethinking Mormonism: http://www.i4m.com/think/

Joseph Smith's Changing First Vision Accounts: http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/fvision-accounts.html

Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church (by genetic researcher Dr. Simon Southerton, a former LDS bishop): http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Lost-Tribe-Native-Americans/dp/1560851813

"DNA vs. The Book of Mormon" (ref. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o)

Book of Mormon Tories (plagarisms in the BoM involving two American history books, one published in 1789 and the other in 1805, that were available to Joseph Smith): http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/magazine/pmm_article_full_text/211

The Lost Book of Abraham (more proof that Joseph Smith lied about his 'translation' ability): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

The 'motherlode' of historical info. about Mormonism (including many quoted official church sources, and their references): http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm

Digital photograph of the title page of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon that shows that Joseph Smith was the author and proprietor (he claimed he was the 'translator' of the ancient gold plates): http://www.inephi.com/1.htm

The Untold Story of the Death of Joseph Smith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM&feature=related

‘Faith-disrupting’ teachings and statements of Mormon ‘prophets’ (after Joseph Smith): http://mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm#apostleadmits

How Mormonism 'programs' people and affects their self-esteem: http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

40 fears created by LDS 'programming': http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/fears.htm

You can also find several posts of mine (with links) on www.postmormon.org (I post there as CdnXMo).

Good luck!

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Posted by: Emma's Flaming Sword never logged in ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 06:53PM

This is what he did.

1. Went super slow. Never dropped any "anti-Mormon" bombs
2. Asked me lots of questions. Tried to listen instead of lecture. For example, Did I think that blind faith was a virture?
3. Started discussions using Mormon approved sources FAIR and FARMS. Gently pointed out some of the stupidness of their arguments (which isn't hard to do)
4. When he did start reading openly "anti" stuff he never talked about it. He let me ask questions.
5. Used indirect material like "Guns, Germs and Steel"
6. Encouraged me to do my own research and not to take his word for it.
7. Voila, several years after he left so did I.

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Posted by: jwood ( )
Date: December 31, 2010 07:01PM

emmas comment above mine looks like the best. Just try to encourage religious discussion and slowly throw in the inaccuracies of the church and ask lots of thought provoking questions without challenging her.

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Posted by: escapee ( )
Date: January 01, 2011 01:51AM

It can be hard to let go of. I was having my doubts several years ago, trying to cling on to it, and wanting it to be true. But in the end, I realized that no matter how much I wanted it, I could not make a silk purse out of that sow's ear of a church. And that's basically how it comes down.
Other Susan

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Posted by: Steve ( )
Date: January 01, 2011 02:08AM

Brigham young did not.

Brigham went to his grave thinking that the "first" vision was the moroni encounter. He never even heard of Smith contradictory accounts of seeing angels, the lord, god, jesus, god and jesus etc etc etc.

Why?

Young was semi-illiterate and never read Smith's multiple accounts that he invented between 1932 and 1838.

There are only two conclusion to be drawn from them, he lied 5 out of six times, or he lied six times.

One of those conclusions is 99.99999999 percent more propbable than the other.

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Posted by: Major Bidamon ( )
Date: January 01, 2011 02:50AM

I wrote out a "manifesto".

Told my DW what my view were on Tithing, WOW, Kids ... but also asked for her viewpoints.

For example, I made it very clear I would drink, I also made it clear that I wouldn't drink at home.

The key is communication.

Good luck. You are not alone.

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