Good morning brothers and sisters,

For those of you who don't know me I'm a 17-y-o priest who's just itching for the opportunity to come of age and leave the cult forever.

So today in early-morning seminary, we were doing Mark 6, more specifically the section where John the Baptist gets beheaded. My TBM seminary teacher said that where John says "Herod's marriage isn't lawful" he's meaning that it wasn't a proper temple marriage. I asked him to clarify because it seemed to me that he was just pulling stuff out of his a$$. (I didn't exactly phrase it that way but you understand.)

So he got real angry and said that if we would pray about we'd find out for ourselves. Maybe I should go pray harder, he said.

Then it got real funny because some kid asked him what a temple marriage is like, and was told not to ask because it's sacred and that he would learn when the time came but for now he isn't worthy enough.

That got the class into a whole new discussion, and because some other kids decided it would be fun to try and guess what goes on in the temple, and we spent the rest of the class doing that. I of course didn't say anything, I just listened to the rather amusing guesses people made. Hilarious.

LOL seminary is going to be so much fun this year.

(Note: Funny how mormons never answer your question, they just weasel their way around and then tell you it's your fault.)

Well, any time they withhold information, speculation is fair game. Then they boo-hoo about persecution, misinformation, etc..etc..

They should try being honest for a change, but they know that full disclosure invalidates them.

What to do when you're pushing fiction as fact?

This sounds like a pretty dumb question, but are you Canadian?

Yes, I'm from the Great White North, except right now it's just soggy.

Neat! I'm from Toronto... though it's pretty soggy down here too at the moment.

Wow, good job! Keep us informed.

You asked a good question. Got the whole class going and off topic.

The rest of the year should be entertaining.

My question. The point of baptizim is to wash away sins. Jesus was sinless. And according to church teachings so are all children up to the age of 8. How can you wash away the sins of the sinless?

The purpose for mormon baptism is two-fold. The sin thing is universal. Baptism also is the only way to join the church. They say Jesus was being an example.

I asked that question too, as an adult. Why do kids need the atonement if they can't sin? I never could get anyone to answer it satisfactorily. I made sithlord so frustrated because he couldn't give me a sensible answer, nor could our home teachers. Rather funny now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 01:49AM by twojedis.

Herod's marriage wasn't lawful because he already had a wife (the daughter of Aretas, king of Arabia,) and his new wife Herodias already had a husband (his half brother Philip.) Further complicating matters, Herodias was the daughter of a *third* brother, Aristobulus, in effect making her Herod's niece. Herod's new marriage was therefore in violation of the Torah.

Yes, it nothing to do with temples. Marrying your sister in law was not accepted. Violating a treaty by divorcing your foreign wife wasn't really a good idea either politically speaking.

So, it sounds like Herod could be mormon after all. Phillip must have been on a mission or something, and his niece probably got the flaming sword line.

Seriously! I was thinking as I read that, "hmm, sounds like Joseph Smith..."

edit: crap! Keep replaying at the wrong spot...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 02:26AM by hexalm.

It couldn't have been a temple marriage simply because marriages were never performed in the Jewish temple.

The only wedding mentioned in the NT is the wedding at Cana. That wasn't a temple marriage because the only temple was in Jerusalem and marriages were never performed in the Jewish temple. Yet, Jesus not only honored this marriage with his presence he graced it as the place for his first public miracle. (Yes, it WAS wine.)

Next time say "Why are we wondering what the temple is like? The whole temple ceremony is on the internet." That will get them googling. Good work teaching your friends to ask questions.

Rather than come right out and challenge him. You can say something about thinking of what it would be like on a mission. And if an investigator asked about blank ( insert controversial question) how are you suppose to answer? You end up playing the devils advocate all year under the pretext of getting all ready to serve the lard. Just a thought.

Also, you could mention that BOM is the most correct book on the face of the earth and supposedly contains the fullness of the gospel. Then, is temple marriage noted in the BOM anywhere?

I believe Harod's marriage wasn't illegal in Jewish law because it wasn't a temple marriage (something they did not do) but because he married someone who was too closely related to him.

Just to be clear, the goal here is to eventually get kicked out of Seminary for asking too many questions right? I think that is a good goal. When your parents get angry at you, just point out you were there to learn, you had questions, and the teacher got angry because he did not want to answer them. It might be a WTF moment for one of your parents, plus it will get you out of Seminary.

Oh, and the way Mormons work, this is a very real possibility.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2012 11:09PM by forbiddencokedrinker.

You have been called to serve an RfM mission to the early morning seminary class. You have no commitment or obligations, but you may enjoy yourself as you please through intelligently challenging stupid doctrines and intentional lies.

There are no requirements for those who desire greater knowledge and truth and who no longer wish to pretend to know things they don't know, but they will be blessed to have another enlighted person in their company prepared to experience life as a non-all knowing while curious human being!

Congratulations! The field is ripe all ready to harvest!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 01:12AM by gentlestrength.

Nice work. Just keeping asking questions like that. You will drive the teacher crazy, you will make seminary more entertaining for yourself, and you will get your peers thinking. If you have to go to seminary then you might as well make the best of it.

If I were you I'd think of a way to get the conversation turned either toward the Masons, or the fact that Joseph Smith was armed with smuggled-in guns the day he died at Carthage Jail.....

Hmmm....

Or maybe the Rosetta Stone?

Definitely better than how I acted out--I drove some other kids, so I still did that, then stayed in the car during seminary.

I was never very socially competent (still am not, very), so I wouldn't have been able to act as an agent provocateur, much.

Eventually the parents caught wind of it, of course, and now I find I can't remember if I completed seminary, or managed to get out of going...I seem to recall my mom tried threatening to take the car away, but I retorted that I didn't care much, and she'd only be shooting herself in the foot...along with the people I was driving. Funny how hazy events are from 12 years ago. With that kind of victory, I can't imagine I went on to complete seminary, but maybe they convinced me to do it. Hmm...


At any rate, I'll be living vicariously through your posts, so I look forward to hearing more!

Story of John reproving Herod: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beheading_of_St._John_the_Baptist

Herod had divorced his first wife, then married his SIL.
John didn't approve. So the SIL now wife of Herod had her daughter dance for Herod and company. He offered to give her anything she wanted, so she asked her mother for advice. Her mother told her to ask for John's head on a platter.
Herod couldn't loose face in front of his peers. So he had John killed.

So where was the temple marriage of Herod who wasn't even a beliving Jew? He was a traitor because he was the puppet govenor of the Roman Empire answering to Rome.

His claim to rulership wasn't valid in the Jewish heirarchy. He knew Joseph and Mary would have been the rulers if Israel had been a free state, not under Romes rule. Joseph and Mary fled to Eygpt because they had royal house contact there and somewhere to live when they got there. Kind of like the Romanofs that fled Moscow and lived in Paris in the last century.

I've read that Herod was fearful of losing his position so he ordered all the children under two killed so he could get the lawful heir, Jesus, out of the way.
The other sinsiter twist was he knew he was so hated people would be dancing for joy in the streets when he died. So he made danmmmmm sure someone cried and mourned death because of him.

Keep asking pleasant questions; if every member is a missionary why am I not to be friends with people unless they join the church? If someone hates their family because they are being abused by them why would they want to be with them in the eternities? Is it right to tell a small innocent child they will never see their Mommy and Daddy again because they are non-believers? Isn't that mean?
What about the abused child being forced to sing "I'm so glad when Daddy comes home" when their abusive father regularly beats them? For that matter what about the child who has lost their family through divorce and are forced to sing "I have a family here on earth, they are so good to me." How does that help a child feel happy?

Does the 11th article of faith only apply to never mormons??? What about mormons who decide to be Buddists when they grow up? Does the 11th article of faith written by JS mean it?

Or why do the cheer leaders at the lords school get to wear inappropriate worldy costumes???

Or Marriot be in good standing while selling porn in his Motels??? He is not required to like a grocery store selling cigarettes.....??????

Actually, the massacre of the innocents was only mentioned in Matthew and no other contemporary sources. Herod was definitely a nasty guy though, and did kill plenty of people. The motivation for the supposed killing of children was alleged to have been wise men seeking the newborn king of Jews (a title Herod wanted to keep), I don't think Mary and Joseph or their son were heirs to anything of major political consequence.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 03:38AM by hexalm.