what are the odds that Mormons could be soooo wrong on issues like...

religion
the veracity of the BOM
the existence of god
the early history of the church
polygamy/polyandry
dna
egyptian
where the sun gets its light
etc
etc
etc...

and be correct when it comes to politics?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2012 09:50PM by sonoma.

The two situations you mention, religion and politics, are unrelated. Being wrong about religion has no bearing on whether or not your views on politics are right or wrong.

Historically speaking, economics in the USA has been based on "laissez faire" -- the theory or system of government that upholds the autonomous character of the economic order, believing that government should intervene as little as possible in the direction of economic affairs.

Barack Obama has never worked for a business that operated successfully in the laissez faire environment. He has always worked for governement and he believes that extensive government intervention and oversight is the best way to run the economy. Obama wants to move the US economy away from the system that made it strong and implement the government intervention model, which has never been really successful in any country.

"The two situations you mention, religion and politics, are unrelated. Being wrong about religion has no bearing on whether or not your views on politics are right or wrong."

i never said that they were related.

i'm asking why you think that mormons are unable to reason themselves out of the obvious fraud of mormonism, but are clear thinking and reasonable when it comes to politics.

saviorself Wrote:
Obama wants to move the US economy
> away from the system that made it strong and
> implement the government intervention model, which
> has never been really successful in any country.

So then, he wants to continue the policies of republican president GW Bush? IIRC, weren't the first corporate welfare "bailouts" implemented by the latest Bush administration? "TARP", the plan to bail out the "too big to fail" auto companies and other failing industries, as well as the Fed bailout of Wall Street corrupt financial institutions, was organized and enacted by the Bush admin..

Here's a link to an article about this topic, concerning a Pew poll that shows that fully half of Americans think that Obama started this bailout, corporate welfare policy and practice.

And BTW, this is the same "bailout the "too big to fail" guys, that was implemented by the Reagan admin. under the direction of George HW Bush, during the so-called savings and loan crisis of the late eighties.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20013452-503544.html

And yet, the republicans claim that their TARP-style policies made (and continue to make) America stronger, in the grand old "capitalist" style. Might I be allowed, then, to say, in the style of our own SL Cabbie, "bull biscuits!"?

Great thoughts! How could a logical reasonable voter want a repeat of the last 4 years? Doesn't make any sense!

You ask that as if voting for Obama is voting for a repeat of the problems we've been dealing with, and as if those problems didn't start before Obama took office.

That is real cause of our acute economic woes, not a sudden ramping up government spending as so many people seem illogically convinced.

Deficits go up when the economy shrinks. Fact of life, whether you want to react by letting it grow into infinity, or slashing and burning everything to balance it out.

Obama hasn't been able to fix much of anything in the last 4 years. He did promise that things were going to get better if he was elected. If only the Clintons were back in the White House!

I'm quickly moving away from being a Republican however:

1) I think a lot of the reason so many Mormons are Republicans are the social issues - especially abortion & LGBT issues. They are told these things are wrong and so it makes the decision for them.

In that regard I think they are DEAD wrong. It is disgusting that they want to legally destroy other people's civil liberties.

I also hate that the republicans shelter the uber rich so much. It really seems like they have completely sold out to them.

However there are things that I think Republicans are right about:

I think that Democrats want to play big brother way too much with businesses especially small business. If the things they were trying to do were effective and made sense I'd be all for them. For example my dad is a dentist. One fact of Obama care is that he now has to submit a whole bunch of new paperwork to the government every year that he estimates will cost him $5000-$10000. They think they are solving a problem that they aren't solving - dentists who want to screw people over are still going to do it despite the paperwork.

Government will always be extremely inefficient money wise. Any time the government takes on a role it will always be super bureaucratic and less efficient that would happen if it was done in the private sector. I think Republicans are right to attempt to reduce the role of the federal government in many areas.

It's just not as simple as one political party is all right and one is all wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2012 10:27PM by bc.

"It's just not as simple as one political party is all right and one is all wrong."

but wait, isn't it as simple as the Mormon church is all wrong?

as for your whining dentist dad, my cousin the gynecologist whines about the foul injustice of Obamacare to anyone with ears. somehow i'm not worried that he's gonna have to give up his mansion in the country, or that mrs gynecologist will have to get a job.

why is it that mormons who think that life is about following the rules... exactly, hate following the rules as put forth by the (god inspired) government?

whining dentist dad? looks like class warfare is working.

whining dentist dad = class warfare?

thanks icanseethelight for giving me the biggest laugh of the political season!

The Mormon church and the Republican party aren't the same thing. Your initial statement that if someone is wrong about one thing they are wrong about something else is a logical fallacy. Frankly I ignored that argument because it is a ridiculous argument.

My Dad actually doesn't make that much money. He does a lot of free work and takes a lot of Medicare/Medicaid patients that no one else will take - or that other dentists swindle the insurance for to get money they don't deserve. He lives in a modest house and drives modest cars and at 63 probably won't be able to afford to retire at 65. And my Mom works and has worked at my dad's dental office for many years to help make ends meet.

Wasting $5000-$10000 a year to fill out paperwork is stupid. Hurting businesses, especially small businesses with waste just hurts the overall economy which hurts all of us. I don't know my dad's income but that money comes directly out of his pocket and his take home pay - I'd guess it is somewhere around 10% - would you like your pay reduced 10% just so that the government can have you fill out paperwork?

Also my dad agrees with some aspects of Obama care - there are parts of it he feels are positive - it's the wasteful big brother part that is problematic.

Even the Mormon church has some good aspects to it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2012 11:16PM by bc.

it just seems absurd that in the 21st century, you can have a senate candidate that thinks that a woman's body can prevent a pregnancy if she is "legitimately" raped, and even more absurd that people could think that a guy this WRONG on any issue could be right, say, on fiscal issues.

sorry republicans, but too many of your politicians are just blithering idiots. the best and the brightest are leaving in droves... just like the mormon church.

+1

sonoma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it just seems absurd that in the 21st century, you
> can have a senate candidate that thinks that a
> woman's body can prevent a pregnancy if she is
> "legitimately" raped, and even more absurd that
> people could think that a guy this WRONG on any
> issue could be right, say, on fiscal issues.
>
> sorry republicans, but too many of your
> politicians are just blithering idiots. the best
> and the brightest are leaving in droves... just
> like the mormon church.


For me the final straw was when Mittens claimed a financial turn around and in the next breath said he'd increase military spending.
It's been said that war generally makes money, but they forgot to factor in that the war has already damaged economics exponentially since the Bush regime.
What the holy heck was he thinking? It simply didn't apply to this decade at all.
Republicans kept claiming that Mitt knew business, and bought his brand of shinola.

Sonoma you are incredibly mature!

The private sector is more efficient? You mean, like Enron? Washington Mutual? Worldcom? Arthur Anderson? What about all the mega banks that we've subsidized with our tax money, because they gambled and lost? What about our private soldiers, that cost us many many times over what a common grunt costs, to do the same job?

Do you know that we spend more for our crappy PRIVATE healthcare system than any other country, yet our outcomes are among the worst in the developed world? Government run health care systems, like the ones that keep europeans alive longer and healthier than us cost a lot less. To claim that government is ALWAYS more inefficient is empirically false.

Reduce government in many areas? Like, worker safety? Environmental responsibility? Food inspection? Vaccines, like the one that has killed a bunch of people recently? That's not really working out all that well. We need MORE big brother, not less.

What is government anyway, in a democracy? Its US, we the people. Private interests are PRIVATE. That means, no accountability and no motive other than profit. Government can be held to the fire and made to do its job. Private companies do whatever it takes to make money, that's it. I'll take government big brother over corporate big brother any day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2012 11:45PM by popolvuh.

heh, heh, apparently we need to continue this discussion in email - I'm about to sign off and the political deadline on here looms...

You make some good points I look forward to discussing it with you further offline.

Quickly my observation is that corporations have to make tough decisions to tighten the belt and be more efficient where the government as it is run today doesn't have the same constraint.

Again, look at the events and facts of the last decade, involving the titans of the business world. Tightening of belts ain't happening. Its called lying, cheating, doing whatever it takes to get what you want and getting away with it until somebody is busted, but not the big guys, just the little guys. Government is accountable! Private business is not. Those in charge loot their own companies and walk away rich. That's not efficiency, that's piracy. And yes, we will be writing more about this:)

bc says:

" I think Republicans are right to attempt to reduce the role of the federal government in many areas."

I would think so too, if only republicans actually meant, and acted upon, what they say. I haven't seen much evidence of republicans trying to reduce the federal government's scope, or its spending, in any meaningful way, except for successfully de-regulating the Wall St. finance and banking industries, which lead to the corruption and collapse of the mortgage market, which triggered the current depression and world financial crisis. Plus, during the latest Bush administration, republicans, led by their neocon wing, financed the huge growth of federal bureaucracy in the creation of the mammoth Homeland Security Department and its endless subroutines, and the humongous out-of-control spending to bigger the military and it's constant wars.

The only government programs that the republicans really seem to want to shrink, are those that benefit the poor and needy.

This is the perfect post because I have long wondered if the right wing learned their indoctrination techniques from the morg.

I hear repubs spout off about completely fictitious economic theories and principles - never mind their views of governance - and they believe it like they believe the jebus stuff. It is shocking, but repubs react the same way if you invite them to sit down and refer to econ text books, historical data about real wages, poverty, gov;t spending etc,as tbms do when you say lets sit down and look at facts rather than myth.

It is no mistake that the morg teaches jeebus mythology and economic and governance mythology.

The GOP platform is all wrong. I voted for Obama. I think he's a fine canditate with wide appeal and good vision.

The Democrats did a good job of selecting a president who appears to be a really straight up guy. The Republicans selected a guy with all the humanity of a water heater. They need my help.

Mr. Bagley I take umbrage at your comparison of Mr. Romney to a water heater. That could leave open the possibility that there is warmth some times. I think he should be more accurately compared to a freezer of the type you keep downstairs or in the garage.

Mr.templeendumbed I take umbrage at your comparison of Mr. Romney to a Freezer of the type you keep downstairs or in the garage. That could leave open the possibility that I would let him into my house! I think that he should be more accurately compared to a Curelom.

Mr. Sonoma I take umbrage at your comparison of Mr. Romney to a Curelom because that would infer he has an imaginary heartbeat. I think you should maybe use a shinehah (whatever that coin crap was) of silver instead.

Mr. templeendumbed I take umbrage at your comparison of Mr. Romney to a shinehah of silver because that would infer he has some inherent social or economic value. I think you should maybe compare him to Boyd KKK Packer, who is not human, has no social or other redeeming value, and is a blight and burden upon the Earth to the detriment of all.

Mr. xyz, I take umbrage to your comparison of Mr. Romney to someone in stan's top ten. Mr. Romney is just the typical psychopath that masturbates when he sees people lose their jobs to China, but he's not in stan's top ten.

Yeah, you are right temp, Romnulan is just something that Stan scrapes off the sole of his shoe.

ROTFLMFAO!

I concede!

I don't know. What I do know was that Gordon B. Hinkley was a registered democrat.