Ellen's take was wonderful. I especially loved the part when she talks about how there a number of messages in our society (read: bigoted religious nonsense) that help to justify these acts of bullying.
The Morg, along with other gay-hating organizations should be ashamed every time something like this happens.
anon Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If it had been a posting of a hetersexual > encounter that led to the suicide it wouldn't have > made much of a splash in the news. > > Do gays want to have special consideration or do > they wan't equality? Or do they want it both > ways?
First of all, I don't think it matters if it was a hetero or homo sexual encounter. Either way, it still would have been very tragic.
Secondly, I haven't heard of anyone from the gay community demanding special consideration as a result of this. There wasn't anything in the news story posted above to suggest this.
As for the news coverage. Maybe it's getting more attention because it involves a homosexual. But, I don't think the gay community has much control over how the media reports its news.
helios Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > anon Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > If it had been a posting of a hetersexual > > encounter that led to the suicide it wouldn't > have > > made much of a splash in the news. > > > > Do gays want to have special consideration or > do > > they wan't equality? Or do they want it both > > ways? > > First of all, I don't think it matters if it was a > hetero or homo sexual encounter. Either way, it > still would have been very tragic. > > Secondly, I haven't heard of anyone from the gay > community demanding special consideration as a > result of this. There wasn't anything in the news > story posted above to suggest this. > > As for the news coverage. Maybe it's getting more > attention because it involves a homosexual. But, > I don't think the gay community has much control > over how the media reports its news.
A boy taped having sex with a girl propbably wouldn't have cared that much. He might even have been proud of it.The girl might have fel;t differently, but who knows. There is a stigma attached to homosexuality and the kid proabably didn't want everyone to know. As long as the stigma continuse, it will be worse for gays.
It doesn't matter that the kid was homosexual or not. However, he was targeted because he was gay. How many people do you know that are bullied and targeted because they are straight?
to this happened to a straight teen girl who had been bullied online and it got plenty of media attention, so I don't think this is getting any more attention because he was gay.
That is true. Anyone taped having sex without their knowledge and having it published would be upset and betrayed, but it would be worse for a gay kid because it would out him to the world. Girls would feel betrayed, probably more than boys because there is still a double standard. Regardless, it is wrong..
I know that there is an increasing awareness of the high suicide rate among gay teens. I also know that many people are getting much more active in trying to prevent it.
BTW, to me this would be equally tragic if it happened to a straight kid. Too bad you don't seem to feel the same.
I'm so sorry that reading about how gay people don't have the same privelleges you do makes you uncomfortable, anon!
Even though roughly 80% of homeless kids identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual or trans and those groups make up less than 10% of the total population, we won't say it's a problem or report on it, because that wouldn't be "fair" to all the straight people who are "more equal".
And next time one of our teenagers is the target of repeated hatecrimes: we'll be quiet about it. BECAUSE MAKING THE STRAIGHT PARENTS WHO PROTESTED WHEN WE STARTED A GAY-STRAIGHT ALLIANCE REALIZE WHAT GAY KIDS FACE IN HIGH SCHOOL MIGHT MAKE THEM FEEL SLIGHTLY GUILTY ABOUT SHAMING KIDS.
Because straight kids are more equal, so they're totally entitled to not experience ritual hatecrimes. And when gay kids experience those things, and when the school administration does nothing, and when the local government does nothing, the media totally shouldn't bring attention to any of it. EVEN WHEN 5 GAY KIDS ARE HATE CRIMED TO DEATH IN A SINGLE MONTH. because god forbid- straight people learn that they do not deserve to be "more equal". God forbid that straight people have to deal with the uncomfortable truth that hate crimes, disowning, employment discrimination, ect ARE SENSELESSLY KILLING PEOPLE.
Who or what lacked sense here? Was the suicide meaningless or purposeless? There needs to be more thorough and sensitive media investigation to reveal why this person felt that self-killing was the recourse to this admittedly cruel prank.
had he not been harassed, had he not been publicly outed without his permission, had he been able to find his identity in peace without the threat of bullying by someone that is supposed to be an ally he may not have been driven to what seemed to be his only solution.
Bullying is an epidemic. Bullying is psychological corrosive and damaging to the psyche of developing teens who make decisions using their amygdala and not their frontal cortex. Bullying can lead to teens honestly believing that there is no way out but through suicide.
"Senseless death" is a media cliche, usually meaning that there is no rational explanation or that it could have been avoided. "Senseless suicide," while less common a term, typically means that it served no purpose and hence was unnecessary. Either way, using the term is a disservice to Tyler Clementi, shifting the blame to him. Of course the whole thing needn't have occurred, but the train of events could probably have been stopped at several different places. That's why, if this is to be a learning experience--and hence NOT just senseless--there needs to be a lot more investigation.
I truly do not know that is more pathetic, your not knowing that it is senseless, or your picking at my use of the word senseless.
I think the absolute worst is that you claim that because I used the word senseless that I am shifting the blame to Tyler.
And you are making a huge assumption that society will actually learn from this. Such thinks have been going on for a very long time and it seem the lessons have not been learned.
Never mind that learning from a senseless act does not make sense of the act.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2010 09:58PM by MJ.
The fact that this has gotten international coverage, that it has been the talk of TV shows, that the university president issued a statement--all these show that this is not just 'another' of the same. Perhaps the time is right, and the other huge issue of internet spying is involved, but this may result in changes in the law.
Of course you can make later sense out of outrageous occurrences. That's how a lot of learning is accomplished. This is not an event that merits only emotional reactions like anger and sadness. Left at that level, you're right: no learning.
Learning is only for the surviver, it does NOTHING to change the nature of the incident. Learning only happens AFTER the event, things that happen after the event have no affect on the event itself. Yeah, some people will try to make sense of a suicide, but that is ONLY FOR THEMSELVES, to feel better about themselves, and has NO AFFECT on the actual victim, Tyler and his death. Trying to make sense of the suicide is like putting lipstick on a pig, all you have is a pig with lipstick on, it is still a pig. Tyler's death was senseless and people are trying to make sense of it by cosmetic claims like "well, it's a learning experience". What you have is a senseless act with a lot of people trying to make cosmetic claims to force sense where there is none.
"International coverage" does not mean the lesson was learned. Wars have gotten international coverage for as long as there has been international coverage, yet we still have wars, the lessons have not been learned just because of international coverage. Trying to claim "international coverage" means learning is NONSENSE.
Never mind that the "international coverage" of what happened to Mathew Shepard shows clearly that "international coverage" is not leading to learning when it comes to abuse of gays.
I mean truly, considering the tragedy of this event, you choose to harp on the word senseless? Pathetic.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2010 10:28PM by MJ.
I think what Ahem.. is really trying to say is that we should learn from the the tragedy and try to make society more aware and accepting, and probably that they feel the term "senseless" is more akin to "meaningless" or "in vain".
If we learn from what happened, if previously clueless heteros realize that things like this happen because of the hatred and intolerance, then his death was not *in vain*. Matthew Shepard's murder was a cruel, disgusting tragedy but we're light-years ahead in advancing equality and justice because of it.
I understand you're upset, rightfully so. Any suicide is tragic because the person felt so hopeless and alone, and felt no one around him would have been strong enough to help. This young man's death was even more tragic because it was likely caused by his self-shame of his sexuality, which is caused by society's intolerance of it.
I respect your point of view. I think you're completely justified in your anger. But you're accusing Ahem.. of picking apart a single word, and yet you've deconstructed and over-analyzed his post and used it as a flash-point to lash out at a complete stranger on the internet. You're not doing the community a favor by needlessly antagonizing someone who overall appears to support the cause.
This is indeed going to become a "learning experience," and in unexpected ways. From reading contrasting online reports, I think that the politically correct media has distorted or only selectively reported much of the incident, and viewers or readers have used the coverage as a rorschach test to vent their own biases. This is not the forum to rehash those distortions, though. Suffice it to say, this will become an opportunity to see how media run away with a story and pull their consumers along with them.
Strangely, something similar happened in the Matthew Shepard case, where it finally came out 7 years later (when the perpetrators were finally able to talk to the media) that this was not the hate crime reported but a botched robbery attempt by desperate and high-for-a-week meth addicts who targeted the drunk Shepard in a bar because he was well-dressed and looked rich.
Whether they were tweaked out of their minds or not, they did meet him at a gay bar, brutally beat him and left him tied to a fence in the middle of the frozen tundra of Wyoming. Presumably they wouldn't have had the opportunity to do so if they hadn't been posing as homosexuals interested in an intimate encounter with him. Had he been a well-dressed, potentially wealthy straight man, then they'd have never had the opportunity to meet him in a gay bar. To me that pretty much settles it as a hate crime.
13 years is a long time to try and come up with a cover story to help justify/excuse their actions, and I'm sure they had a *lot* of free time to ponder it. Doesn't sound like they spent much time pondering the consequences of their actions however, but only how to gain pity for themselves.
And in this case, that means everyone else in the world. Obviously "senseless" is also only for the survivors, and if they are unaffected by it--can learn nothing--then THEY indeed do make it senseless.
We are not on different sides here, so I'll stop the comments.
There has probably been thousands of gay suicides that go unreported. You are saying that Tyler's death makes sense because it was reported world wide.
Well, that would mean that all those other suicides would be senseless. That somehow, Tyler's death has more value because it makes sense and people are learning from it.
I am sorry, but that is totally insensitive and demeaning to all those that have ended needless suffering via suicide and their families. There is nothing different between the feelings and motives of Tyler and the gays that suffered and committed suicide without the world attention. The senselessness of the suffering that lead to the suicide is NOT erased by attaining celebrity status after they are dead.
I am sorry, but I will NOT claim that one person's suicide makes sense while another's does not because the former got press coverage. I am not on the same side of anyone that would make such claims
Not diminishing the awareness call stemming from it, but it seems the homophobic angle was a failed defense strategy to plead extenuating circumstances. The killers made a deal with the court to avoid the death penalty and the terms included a ban on talking to the media.