I just finished listening to your podcast last night and thought it was quite astounding. I was especially interested in how one can go from one frame of mind to a completely opposite life altering one in a relatively short period of time. I have always assumed my mother; the most devout Mormon I know has no chance of ever seeing through the fraud. She is in just too deep and heavily brainwashed. If a Stake President has the ability to reason through untruths than maybe she might have a chance. I loved listening to your process of thinking when you realized the enormous holes in the church that contradict Science. Bit by bit your perfectly intact belief system was deconstructed. I had a near identicle experience to your method of determining the church was false. I finally came to the conclusion that there is more evidence against a God than for one. Just wondering if you would be willing to talk about your current belief system and whether you believe in a God or afterlife? Also if you have been able to salvage your marriage? I can imagine that your wife is as tbm as they come. I will understand if you don't want to answer these questions. I get the impression that John Dehlin knows the church is not true but stays on the fence intentionally where he can still gain access to and influence both active members; fringe Mormons and Exmormons. Maybe thats smart. It seems that he might be helping more Mormons find their way out of the church than in. Thank you for your forthcoming interview. The biggest sign the church is a cult is when we see time and again family turn their back on the unbeliever. Hopefully one day your family will be willing to have that talk with you that you have asked for repeatedly.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2012 11:44AM by turnonthelights.

I think your take on John Dehlin is spot on.

Regarding the questions you asked :-

My current belief system? - I am an atheist which is not, in fact a belief system. After discovering Mormonism was false I still obviously believed in Jesus Christ, therefore I studied the New Testament again to find out what he actually taught and did. Long story short, Christianity is a false religion (IMHO).

I still, however, believed in God but, again, long story short no such being as the Biblical or Mormon god. Maybe I was a deist and believed in something/someone who started the universe - no, better explanations provided by provable science.

I then became agnostic but ultimately realised we can know whether there is a god as understood by Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I am 100% sure there is no such god. Is there some other supreme being or force? I don't know but it is highly improbable and is not an answer to our questions, for any such being necessitates far more questions.

I do not believe in an 'afterlife' other than the molecules making up our body will be diffused.

Regarding my marriage and whether it has been salvaged. I spent 8 years trying to do that, now I am divorced. I am extremely happy in my new life. It is like I had died and come to heaven. I live in paradise with friends who genuinely love me.

Hope this answers your questions and thanks for your kind comments.

Tom

There are a few odd things about Dehlin. One being, he's a computer/IT whiz guy, who has worked directly for Microsoft, Bain and the Church in the computer field.

Years ago he got a bachelor's degree in political science. But now is getting a PhD in clinical psychology? To my knowledge, most universities do not allow someone to study at the PhD level unless they already have undergraduate and Master's degrees in the same subject as the PhD.

His brother was CIO for the cult, er, church. I am guessing the development of LDS.org and Mormon.org and other related back-end work to ensure the Mormon messages have gotten out are likely to have been the result of work done by the Dehlins.

Hinckley, then later another GA (I forget which one) instructed the members to jump on the internet to counter the anti-Mormon info, by creating blogs etc. Suddenly, John Dehlin is right on the bandwagon building the Mormon "bloggernacle" as well as his podcasts etc. That leads one to suspiciously wonder if John is on the church payroll?

He most likely was when he created Mormon Stories. Why? The church most likely had PR advice given to it that they needed to start allowing expression of differing views and exposure to true church history from amongg members (aka Bushman) to be able to inoculate the members so they would a. feel they are not being lied to and b. are being listened to--even if the church doesn't change, or if it changes in small, slow steps.

Exmosis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hinckley, then later another GA (I forget which
> one) instructed the members to jump on the
> internet to counter the anti-Mormon info, by
> creating blogs etc.

M. Russell Ballard

If that was the plan of the church then they are doing a very crappy job of implementing it. In order for it to work they would have to be willing to actually make some changes and be more open. I tried for a very brief time to attend as a non-believer to see if I could just focus on the good and beauty in it and all that stuff John Dehlin, Joanna Brooks the Bushmans and all their friends talk about. It didn't work and I don't think it will work for most people. The church is not set up to allow for that kind of person to live happily and in peace. It is set up to harass that person to try and get them to be obedient.

I don't think there is anything suspicious about doing a PhD in a field different than your undergraduate studies. In many fields you could enter a masters degree program to correct deficiencies in coursework and then apply to a PhD program. Also I think there would be a lot of skills he learned as an undergrad in Political Science or working in IT that could transfer to Psychology and the program may have even admitted him directly to PhD studies. It sounds like he had developed a pretty good relationship with some of the faculty at USU even before starting on there so basically if the faculty like you and think you can do it you are in.

I didn't say it was impossible, but just that in most credible institutions, a person has to have the requisite undergrad and/or MA degree before they are even considered. So maybe he's been taking a whole bunch of prerequisite courses to qualify ??

It's only suspicious if he stays connected to Mormonism. Does a degree in psychology while working for LDS Inc. to mainstream it. If he becomes an out and out exmo, then less so.

Good for you, Tom, for trying to salvage your marriage and for building a new life! Most people don't understand how hard it is ... unless they've been wearing the same shoes.

In many cases, people who have figured out the truth realized that the person they married wasn't necessarily a good choice to begin with, if their purpose in marriage was to have a "temple marriage" - That wasn't the case with you Tom but for many exmos, they discovered that the marriage was a sham to begin with because it was based on phony Temple covenants that they were pressured into or indoctrinated into making.

Dear TOM; is there a new podcast? did you have a second interview? I already heard the first one, but I thought I heard something about a second interview.
And hopefully, you still visit with children and grand children.

Dearest respect to you.

No, I never did another podcast but I was on a Toronto radio show with Tal Bachman discussing Mormonism.

Link is here http://www.drewmarshall.ca/listen2012.html#121103. We hit a lot of Mormon topics including second anointing, becoming gods, MMM and Mitt's consecration of U.S. Presidency to the Mormon Church.

I'll definitely have to watch that one. Tal Bachman used to be in my stake, I never met him but my wife did and a bunch of my other fellow church goers of knew him. When I heard he'd gone apostate, little did I know I'd be following suit a few years later. Apparently there were a number of people that left the church around that time from the White Rock ward.

Tom Phillips and Tal Bachman together in a radio interview though, definitely not going to miss that one.

Over the weekend I listened to your podcast and also the Drew Marshall radio show. I was totally blown away. I left the church 35 years ago. I just woke up one day and realized the whole thing didn't make sense--that God would bestow blessings on one super special group of people, and ignore the rest of humanity. I did not have the internet or histories such as yours to help me along. Thanks for giving us the priceless gift of your own story so that others won't feel so alone.

Now I realize I was totally lied to and the church has totally revised its history to make itself more acceptable to general society. Thanks for the confirmation and the enlightenment. It means a lot to me and I'm sure will help countless others find the truth.

http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/


http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/10/04/second-open-letter-to-area-presidency/


http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/10/29/a-quick-letter-from-chris-ralphs-dad-to-the-lds-europe-area-presidency/


http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,704192


PS. I thoroughly enjoyed your interview with Tal & Drew...thanks for taking the time to do it.

I don't know the Ralph family and am not surprised they have not received a reply.

I know the new Area President Jose Teixeira and his 1st counsellor Patrick Kearon. If anyone thinks it will help, I am willing to write to them on behalf of Chris.

However, as Chris states he knows Elder Kearon, I would suggest he writes to him personally and copies his bishop and stake president. That way he should be able to hold them to account as, in their instructions to priesthood leaders, they tell them to provide the best avilable answers to members' questions.

If that fails I would go to the British press with the story.

Tom

Wow this new knowledge makes your story that much more facinating. Thanks for sharing!

I really appreciate Tom for his integrity and sharing what he believes in and the information about the Church. He has inspired me to learn a lot more about church leaders, history, etc. and I have come to similar conclusions about the church. I could say the same about John D. that he has helped me learn about problem in the church but I agree I don't understand him being a tithe paying member except maybe he wants to work at BYU or Church???

Tom, I know you have had spiritual expeiences in your life, yet you do not believe in God/Being. Do you attribute all your spiritual experiences to the marvelous brain that we have and none to either relatives from the Spirit world or a God??

I still believe in Jesus Christ/God/Supreme Being and forcing myself to study and get a stronger testimony if possible in Christ/God. I have had many spiritual experiences where I have heard/felt internal voices/strong feelings protecting me from verifiable,imminent danger (immediately reminded me of my dead mother who passed away 3 years ago), letting me know of future events, giving me specific information that helped me, and actually purged my past memories of bad events and took bad emotions away so I could feel a peace I have never felt before.

I just listened to that exact interview with Tal today, as I have it on my ipod. My path out of mo-ism and to atheism was very much like anointed one's. It was based on inconsistencies with science and evidence. The biggest difference is that I was never so fully committed to it as he was! What I have gone through is really nothing compared to his courage. I really admire him.

Do you know for certain that John is a full tithe payer? I actually wouldn't be surprized if he didn't pay tithing. His wiki page says that he is only partly active and attends church once a month. He goes back and forth in activity. I heard on this forum that he wasn't even allowed to baptize his son. Even non tithe payers are typically allowed to baptize their children I thought. He seems to willingly be on a pretty tight lease with the church. I wonder what it would take for him to be excommunicated and in such an event how many of his followers would leave right along with him.

Not sure whether John D is a tithe payer but in 1st thing on his episode board "Why people leave lds church---" on the first slide near bottom of talking the slide (Utube version) he states he is a "devoted, active member of the Church and before stated he was elders quo. instructor" ----- means to me he is a part/full tithe payer as I would not consider myself an active or devoted member w/o paying some tithing. And in another podcast he stated he is encouraged to go to the temple but doesn't feel that is important ----- didn't say he didn't because he does not hold a T recommend. However, you probably know him better and he may be in and out activity-wise and these items above may be dated!

More important is the question - why does TSCC give him (Dehlin) so much latitude? Anyone else would have been out on their butt ages ago. Is it because he works for them? Or that his brother does?

I know you have had "spritual experiences" ------ do you attribute them to your brain alone or either Spirit of Christ, Holy Ghost, Spirit world relative, etc.??

Hey, Tom ... Anointed One ....

Big fan here ...

I have another question. You stated in your interview with Dehlin that you had significant spiritual experiences that caused you to absolutely, unquestionably believe the Church was true.

How is it that you are an atheist now? This I don't get. I've had significant spiritual experiences also. This is how I know there is an afterlife, and I still believe God and still have significant spiritual experiences even though I've resigned from the Church.

If I'd had no spiritual experiences EVER, I would also be an atheist, or at most the agnostic I once was.

How do you view those spiritual experiences now? And if you were so wrong about them then, how are you 100% sure you are right about there being no God now?

Thanks, Tom. This is not an antagonistic post. I simply don't understand the transition from a powerful spiritual experiencer into an atheist.

This is my response to Tom and Another Question.

Tom, thanks for your answer I appreciate your opinion! ----- I know one cannot be certain about a lot of things we experience in life.

Another Question. Maybe I have been brainwashed so much I am having a problem with reality, but I have documented hundreds of "spritual experiences" and have been told before on comment boards by apparantly sincere people it is my miraculous brain only. They wanted all my experiences to examine them but I declined. My latest experience was when I was looking for fossils and indian artifacts in the mountains and was intent on looking at the rocks around me, when an internal male voice yelled at me by name to watch out for the snake. Based on stopping abruptly and noticing a 3-5' rattlesnake sunning itself on the rocks in front of me, I believed it was asleep and not in an aggressive, rattle-shaking mode. Bottomline ----- I don't believe the snake was moving or rattleing his tail to alert my brain. Therefore, I currently think I was truly warned of danger by a force greater than myself (Spirit of Christ, Holy Ghost, Guardian angel, etc.) My dead mother immediately came to my mind based on what was said, I will be more careful when observing any experiences in the future where practical, and continue to review my previous ones to try to understand them better.

I had a similar experience as a young married father (23 maybe), wherein I had worked the night shift at local hospital. I had a 35 mile drive home, and because I didn't drink caffiene or coffee, I was very sleepy during that last 5 miles of the journey. I feel asleep at the wheel about 2 miles before my exit. I was awakened by the force of the car stopping at the stop light. The car miracously drove itself up a 300 yard ramp, cut over two lanes and stopped itself at the stop light (red light). That's what woke me up.

I'm like the Anointed one. Once I began the domino like effect of uncovering the truth of TSCC (man behind the curtain), I became an athiest, and then an agnositic. However, I differ in that I do believe there is a life after death.

I know a psychologist who is doing a study on the part of the brain that allows us to have "spiritual experiences." Interesting stuff!

"Stormin" ....

I understand completely. Keep in mind that many people who insist "spiritual experiences" are nothing more than unusual brain anomalies, are those who have never had spiritual experiences, or they don't recognize them, or they are slow to acknowledge or understand them.

GOOD FOR YOU that you stay open with knowledge of the unseen.

As a similar example to yours, I was driving from Provo to SLC after a snow storm. The roads were mostly clear except for the bridges, and I was going about 10-15 miles under the speed limit. As I approached a bridge near the Point of the Mountain, I received a distinct warning to SLOW DOWN. I did so, and when I reached the bridge, the snow grabbed my tires and nearly spun me into the guard rail.

Later that evening on the news, I heard that another driver crashed over the very same bridge that morning. He died a few days later from his injuries.

I'm grateful I paid attention to that warning instead of dismissing it as a "brain anomaly".

THE BEST TO YOU!!!

Just want to thank Ponti and Another Question for sharing their "spiritual experiences" here and their belief in God/something more than our brains. It is nice to know their are people that think like me ------ didn't find many in my current ward/stake with these type of experiences. I also thank this web site for allowing this type of discussion. I realize this web site is primarily for recovering Mormons and I agree the church has some real problems and I no longer can pay money to support a corrupt church based on: lds policies I have fought for years, things I have learned/studied on the web and the resulting things I believe are True based on the evidence available! Thanks again!