We went public on our FB pages about the stance the church has taken about our case. As a result, we've heard from some individuals and/or families who have stopped going to church since we have. They thought they were the only ones who doubted the doctrine and were relieved that they are not. I am getting the feeling that there are lots of rumblings under the surface of things in the ward, and they are running scared.

Two of my ward members and one of my Christian friends from high school got into a huge debate about the mark of Cain after I posted this quote from BY: "I will tell you who the real fanatics are: they are they who adopt false principles and ideas as facts, and try to establish a superstructure upon a false foundation...If our religion is of this character we want to know it; we would like to find a philosopher who can prove it to us." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.13, pg270, 7/24/1870

One of the ward members said that the church never taught racism. I put the following quote from BY:

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un- comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, [p.291] and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion." - (Journal of Discourses 7:290-291, October 9, 1859)

Both ward members said that this is not doctrine. I told them of course not, because it's embarrassing. Either the church needs to denounce the JOD and quit quoting it, or admit that it's all doctrine. Either it's Canon or it's not. You can't have it both ways.

To quote ambivalentexmo:

"Kinda feel like engaging in a superfun religious debate...

I like to play with my food.."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2012 11:18AM by twojedis.

that you quote BY--who most mormons worship--and they said it isn't doctrine. I never remember in my youth anyone denying any of these doctrines. I was just at my ex BIL and SIL's house for TG and they had Mormon Doctrine proudly displayed on their book shelf.

You just can't have it both ways.

My daughter--who was not raised TBM from age 8 to age 20--said something to me about "caffeine was never an issue--and that is why they said something." I'd love to have my mother alive to deny this claim. That was one thing my mother WOULD NOT do--drink caffeine. My dad always did--including coffee.

So many people have conveniently forgotten SO MUCH.

That's because mormonism isn't about what IS, it's about what the community FEELS.

So 18 year old missions = huge new revelation because the community focused on it. But, what else do they remember from this VERY RECENT conference? Almost nothing.

So you go through the history of the church, and only a few things stick out. Those are they things that are "remembered" but it's more of a cultural feeling than it is a memory.

So it doesn't matter what's on paper, all that matters (when in a debate) is what you think the bishop or RS pres would answer- and suddenly that's doctrine.

S'why arguing with any of them is pointless. I'll point out nuggets, and hopefully something chips away... but I'll let them pull themselves out of that hole, because shouting down to them & extending a hand just makes them them duck deeper in fear, or even dig farther.

++

Yeah, that racist BY quote sent me screaming from the church. I had just adopted a black baby. Never did get that child blessed (or baptized) into the LDS church. Hmmmmmm.

Funny that.

Doesn't matter if it's "doctrine" or not to me 2jedis. Brigham Young said it, and that's enough for me.

;o)

But he was speaking as a man, right? Bwhahahahaha!! I'm sick of hearing that.

Brigham Young said: "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p.95).

Every Word BY Uttered From The Pulpit = Scripture = Word of God = Mormon Doctrine

I think that sums it up nicely, don't you?

Maybe he was speaking as a man, but the First Presidency 100 years later was not. The First Presidency released a statement in 1951 that starts with the following:

"The attitude of the church regarding Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not the matter of a declaration of policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the church from the days of its organization, to the effect that negroes may become members of the church but that they are not entitled to the Priesthood at the present time."

So much for "speaking as a man."

Did you play with your food?
I wanted to jump in and mess with some of those.... logically challenged cult members, but it was not worth the time or the effort. There is no logic allowed in churchco....

Two words : David Twede.

If they proceed with the excommunication effort, how cool would it be to read out a resignation statement in FAT meeting???
Now THAT would be fantastic!

My guess is that the reason they are doing it is as a scare tactic for the other doubters. You are the example. Also in their mind if they can clearly cast you as the "bad guys" it reduces your credibility. For now they can't brush you off as apostates.