Book of Job is a story about testing a man's faith through numerous trials and loss of worldy possessions.

It's also a warning against judging other people as "less than faithful" when they run into problems.

Mormons are so single-minded about this. Got a raise? Good health? That's a blessing from above, so you must be living right. Lost your job? Bad health? You must be doing something wrong otherwise God would fix things for you.

ALL christians ignore Job except some casual reference to his faith.

The 1st & 2nd chapters of Job completely destroy the need for a savior or even forgiveness. The 1st & 2nd chapters of Job are proof that christianity is totally unnecessary, that there was no need for a crucifixion/resurrection, and that anyone can get into heaven.

"One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” (Job 1:6-8)


That's right. The angels went to god's throne and satan came with them. Bible-god and satan chilled out for a while, made a bet, and parted ways. Later on Satan came back to follow up on the wager.

If Satan can visit god, then:

1. Bible-god can be around sin after all
2. Sinners can get into heaven after all
3. Satan is mentally incompetent to make a wager with someone who knows the future

satan gets to go in the temple, so he knows the special handshakes

Also has a TR. He got past the old biddy at the front desk.

Mostly Job shows that god doesn't give a damn about his followers' welfare and will throw them under the bus just to show off.

1. God did not throw Job "under the bus". Rather, it shows that God does not simply prevent bad things from happening to good people.
2. Please note that God rewarded Job at the end.

The concept of God testing one's faith is absolutely not what is in the Book of Job. Rather, it is not God who tests our faith. While JS constantly tested the faith of his followers, just as modern dictators do, such testing to keep his followers in check was pure evil.

That God allows natural events to test our faith does not mean God is testing us. Indeed, it is not even Satan "testing us". Most of what happens badly is from our own errors and the results are not caused by God.

God told Satan to do all that horrible stuff to Job just so God could show off to Satan. God was an active agent in hurting Job in this story.

There is a consensus amongst "Bible Scholars" that the "happy ending" of Job is an add-on from later copying. The original ended with Job losing everything and praising God. Evidently, the earliest sources, codices, etc., end before he magically gets blessed again.

I like the original, sad ending version. But God won the bet, so at least HE was happy.

You can't be serious. You'd have to ignore half of the book of Job to come to your conclusions.

Basically you're saying about the story of Job what most christians say about the story of Noah: "The story might be true if it were told differently."

(FACEPALM)

I know very few people who have actually read the Book of Job and tried to understand what it means.

The book itself is about 10% interesting story and 90% near unintelligible babble.

Why should a Mormon, let alone anybody, try to live by such a book?

If you want real meaning, try to live by Proverbs. A lot of that stuff is pretty neat.

But one of the possible take-aways is simply that God, if he exists, is wholly a narcissist who acts entirely arbitrarily, and there is no influencing him by any appeal to ethical behavior--he's God and you aren't. Get over it.

Not-any-deity-I-want-any-truck-with-ly yrs,

S

Mormons love the book of Job in theory, and by theory, I mean their faith promoting version of it that doesn't jibe with reality.

I remember being in the MTC, and being shocked by one of the apostles mentioning a revelation where they had learned that Job was a real character. I had actually, in the summer before my mission, because I am a nerd, read a pretty convincing piece on how Job was an early example of the ancient Jews writing their own tragic plays in the style of the Greek. I came away understanding it was a work of fiction, and a major accomplishment that was not inspired.

"Mormons love the book of Job in theory, and by theory, I mean their faith promoting version of it that doesn't jibe with reality."

So true!

Of course, the Book of Job doesn't jive with reality either, but that is besides the point. :)

forbiddencokedrinker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had actually, in the summer before my mission,
> because I am a nerd, read a pretty convincing
> piece on how Job was an early example of the
> ancient Jews writing their own tragic plays in the
> style of the Greek. I came away understanding it
> was a work of fiction, and a major accomplishment
> that was not inspired.

Job is OBVIOUSLY fictional. It's a bit of ancient Hebrew
philosophy written in story form. The idea that the Bible is
some factual, inerrant book straight from the pen of God is
what makes Job incomprehensible. Read it as you would the
Illiad or the Odyssey, as you would the Epic of Gilgamesh, or
the Egyptian story of the destruction of mankind. It's great
literature from ancient times.

Religion has ruined the Bible.

Job was the patsy in a bet between Hebrew god and Satan.

Hebrew god said to Satan: "Job is such a sucker he won't be disloyal to me no matter what I do to him."

Satan said: "Humph! Prove it!"

The rest is history. What are the morals to the story?

Satan is smarter than Hebrew god.
Hebrew god is a jagoff.
Job is stupid.

xyz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Job was the patsy in a bet between Hebrew god and
> Satan.
>
> Hebrew god said to Satan: "Job is such a sucker he
> won't be disloyal to me no matter what I do to
> him."
>
> Satan said: "Humph! Prove it!"
>

> Job is stupid.


Satan: (to one of his minions) "You'll never guess what I just
got God to do. I tricked him to tormenting one of his best
followers, bwahahahahaha."

Exactly! LOL!

I didn't. I gave a very fine talk on the Book of Job back in the day.

Yes, but did you include the difficult parts or just talk about "enduring to the end"?

Mormons talk about Job all the time actually. They just ignore the problematic portions of the text.

Yet I heard the story in church many times, each time missing the point you make about testing faith (a sick idea all by itself).

Also when I heard the story in church, I never realized how the story revealed the nature of the Bible God. Next time someone prattles on about how much God loves everyone, mention Job and get that blank stare.

It really shows how they think a God should view stupid humans for His entertainment.

That Job story and the story of asking Abraham to kill his son were enough for me to see Christianity is not really about compassion, but rather testing to make sure the religion can control people through faith.

Even when I was a believing Mormon, I couldn't handle Job. Most Christians probably don't even really read it.

Job portrays God as a stupid, trivial, insecure, bully. Why would he torment Job? Over a bet?

Yeah, I never could square Job in my mind and it just went on the religion shelf which eventually collapsed.

Yep.

And then at the end it's, like, God gave Job everything back again and more so it's all good...

Yeah but what about his 10 children you killed off???

Because it's in the Bible?

Because the words of a living prophet are more important?

Because it's a effed up story?



It depends on what kind of Mormon you are.

I don't think it true that Christians generally ignore the Book of Job. Job is essentially a book of ancient poetry and allegory rather than actual history and is mostly read and studied as such.

Great question!

Probably because it negates the idea that "busy work = blessings."

as a literal, concrete absolute fact - as concrete and literal as the table your computer is sitting on can be touched picked up-

if you take the book of Job literally- then yes God seems very mean, very capricous, very unfair, very unjust-
and that God seems to be breaking mormon commandments (he gambles)
if you take the book of Job literally- and that God seems to be breaking Christian taboos (he visits and and communicates with Satan isn't this supposed to be avoided fastidiously) and (entertains him as a guest aren't you supposed to throw him out yell: "get thee hence Satan"

however, if you take it figuratively- not as a literally-
look at it in a figurative way not a literal way-
then it supports the rain falling on the wicked and righteous concept, and the not needing to literally merit every blessing every favorable experience. that could be used to suppose a sense of Grace (either in the big christian sense of unearned salvation in eternity no matter who you kill if you're saved which still seems relatively rude to me like someone was making up a rule to incorporate his corrupt brother - making commitments/ or doctrine in a tribal way, or even to excuse or enable the writer or committee member to justify their own conduct/ orders to their servants)(if I could I'd type that with italics

or grace (note the small letter) referring to relatively small unearned unmerited benefits of life...for instance, simply not happening to live next to the lake that outgassed toxic fumes killing all the villagers. its not evil. its not fair.

since mormons are killing themselves or needing to procure antidepressant RX in above average numbers, living in a literal state of earning every simple grade, every simple blessing, and believing- being taught in this cultural context to "know" or 'justifying' every bad things which occurs not through your own fault- must be deserved or earned through a lack of virtue/ insufficient righteousness, hidden sin. For instance if someone doesn't like someones' skin color, and places it on the bottom of their social hierarchy- the ultimate mormon solution is to literally blame them for needing to be on the bottom of the social hieracrchy and carefully leaving them there or punching them back down socially - because- if was something earned, merited, from the 'pre existance.'

so if something unjust happens- say being a down winder and everyone getting a tumor- or inhaling and working in fields dusted with organophosphates as a child, or reading books dusted in chlordane, and later getting tumors- going to virtuously care for all family members with tumors by simultaneously to going to the doctor, simultaneiously to the visiting teachers bringing dinner to the family when someone is hospitalized if requested, and virtuously working to maintain medical insurance to pay for said tumors- in the ward there are rumors, direct statements, inuendos- what did you do, where did you go wrong- to deserve this. in a faith where life experiences are blessings which are earned, merited, and can only be improved with greater righteousness (oh wait they have a careful specific list, i t includes things like write in your journal, pray, be 'nice' go to meetings, don't gossip, wear their underware, don't let the underware fall on the floor it goes on and on)

is the mormon literal meriting of life thing - an act of fear and scapegoating those living out fearful parts of life?
by blaming them and holding oneself up more virtuous than them suffering difficulties- does one attempt to stave off the fear that oneself and ones' own family may eventually or ultimately experience lifes difficulties as well?

thats the issue with taking the bible Literally not figuratively to me, from a mormon perspective with a post mormon spin.

Job is a fairy tale of one-upmanship between a god and a devil. It's like an arms race of suffering and nastiness. Ill-conceived, if you ask me.

Even the mormons can't come up with enough BS to make sense out of the story of JOB.

But are some of the 'Mormon-related problems' of the Satan/God relationship negated when you understand that the concept of Satan originally was very different to how he is viewed by mormons today? I'm no expert of this but I seem to recall others mentioning this in the past.