I was wondering today if any of the apologists have suggested that the endowment tokens are not literally what we'll have to do to get into heaven, just symbolic. Instead of presenting the actual tokens, we'd just have to show that we know who we were, who we're becoming, that Christ was crucified for us, and tada, we're in.

So then, Jesus is the SYMBOLIC son of God?

When religions look around and find that people aren't taking their magical crap seriously anymore, they say all the little bits are metaphorical.

Never heard that, but it tracks.

The far greater question to me is how exactly those tokens so identically mirror those of the Freemasons. The apologists have no good answer for that.

I don't care what the apologists SAY we believe. What matters is what the members ACTUALLY believe. When the membership believes one thing and the apologists say something else, what's happening is the church is just trying to hide from an embarrassing doctrine.

When I got my endowment (disappointing day, I know), the temple president took me in his office and told me that when he dies he'll see an angel and have to give it the tokens.

Church doctrine is that god requires a secret handshake to get into heaven. Period. (Which is actually quite sad if you think about it. God is so petty he'll condemn a good person if he gets a keyword wrong.)

The Sacrament is Symbolic... why not the 'Endowment'?

what do / could you mean by 'literal'?

I meant literal as in what Brigham Young said about how we'll actually have to give those exact signs and tokens to angel-sentinels to get into heaven. He took it literally, like the exchange at the veil in the temple is exactly how it's going to happen at the veil to heaven.

The lesson book for pre-temple and pre-nuptual prospectees has a more private introduction to Symbolism (oxen around tank, Masonic imagery etc.), but this is the first time this is discussed in semi-public. Don't most wards have a metalic seventies-shutters feel, with a lack of imaginative achitecture, where the Symbolism is downplayed? Welcome to the dark side.

But the 10% entrance fee for the Gothic show is way too expensive.

The funniest has got to be the Second Annoinetings - where you get the power to open the skies! By the time you get to the pointy hats, the signs, the magic underwear, you gotta suspect summit's dodgy!

Best regards esias

Symbolic of what?

Apologist types always say "the endowment is richly symbolic," and leave it at that.

What is it symbolic of? Why isn't there an official explanation
of what it's symbolic of? Aren't we told only that the story of
the creation of Adam and Eve is symbolic? If they go out of
their way to say THAT part is symbolic, then don't they mean the
rest of it is literal?

The hand with the palm facing down and the thumb extended is symbolic of you handing over your money to the church.

The hand with the palm facing up, with your left hand to the square, is symbolic of the church receiving your money.

Raising your arms and shouting, "Pay lay ale", well, that's quite literal and needs no explanation.

I was told this "at the veil" once. The worker on the other-side was missing his right arm. So we did everything mirror image.

Of course, the rituals are symbolic. Much of the temple dialog is symbolic. It never ever occurred to me that anyone would think any of it was literal. It's impossible to be literal. Rituals have always been symbolic in all religions.
I know some people believe they are literal. I find that absolutely bizarre that anyone would think any of the temple rituals are literal.

I took out my first endowment in 1988. It seems like the sign for the 1st token of the Melchizedek priesthood changed in 1991. It went from left palm up + right palm down + right thumb extended and touching left hip to what it is today: left palm up + right palm down.

Am I remembering that correctly? If so, which sign do I give to the angels that stand as sentinels?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2012 03:14PM by facsimile3.

I should add that the new sign is NOT very convenient for disemboweling myself...errrr...symbolically disemboweling myself (I like to perform the penalties for interested evangelicals here in Texas).