My hell on earth is continuing in full force with no imminent sign of abatement. DW said to me last night that my apostasy is her "worst nightmare" come true. She has always tended to be a bit melodramatic, but that remark really stunned me. "Really?" I asked. "Would you really have preferred me to announce to you that I was having an affair, or was gay or that I frequented prostitutes or molested children??? Is this really the WORST nightmare you could imagine?" She replied that indeed it was the worst, because it was a "betrayal" of our entire lives and our eternal beings, a betrayal of everything our marriage and family are about.

Oi vey! Our perspectives on this could not be farther apart. I see myself as having made a very difficult choice to be honest about what I really believe; that I have the integrity of authenticity. She instead sees it as a purely selfish choice and a betrayal of the highest order.

What has also become abundandtly clear is that she does not love ME (and I wonder whether she ever did). She loves the idea of a perfect eternal Mormon family. I was only ever a necessary acessory to accomplish that ideal. For 12 years I have held my tounge and almost never criticized her. I have always complimented her and encouraged her to to see counselors, psychiatrists, personal trainers, weight loss experts, get a job if she wants to . . . anything to help her with her depression and self esteem issues, but all to no avail. I am not a perfect husband by any means, but all in all I think I have put up with more than most men would. I am certain that she would leave me in an instant if she had an ounce of self esteem left to believe that anyone else would ever want her. Insteand, she contents herself by making my life a living hell whenever I'm around her so that when I finally leave she can denounce me to all as the evil selfish apostate that abandoned his family. It will fit the Mormon narrative so well . . . God it makes me so sick!

I weep (literally) for our children, but I fear that our marriage is in its death throes.

[Note to readers: this post was largely written for purposes of catharsis; I really do appreciate all cyber hugs and well wishes, but please note that advice to seek counseling and help for DW is a complete waste of your time. I would love for my wife to seek help, but she absolutely refuses to go.]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 06:07PM by Onmywayout . . . someday.

*hugs*

You're in a tough spot, and I'm sorry to hear it. It is always alarming when we're reminded of just how dependent on the church some TBMs are - how dependent *we* used to be, in some cases.

It sucks to realize that someone you love valued you only for what you could give her - her "perfect" mormon life - and not for who you are. Hang in there.

*hugs again*

My wife had a very similar response. She literally went through a mourning process of the death of the husband she thought she married.

My wife was always more married to a role - Peter Priesthood -than me.

Over the past 1 1/2 years we have worked through that quite a bit. She has admitted that she was married to a role and that it was wrong. It took over a year but she has finally backed off on the victim mentality that "you changed".

It is a difficult path but it can be worked through. One upside is that within a few months of telling her I didn't believe, I saw a huge change in her attitude that she was accepting being married to me as a person and not as a role.

I think there are two critical things:
1) Let her mourn. Acknowledge that the loss is VERY real - both to yourself and to her. It's not your fault - you are not the bad guy. Irregardless the loss she feels is very real and very devastating.

2) Try to work towards her not seeing herself as the victim and you as the villain. My wife would say over and over "you changed" - eventually when I said "well you didn't change" - for some reason that finally clicked with her.

Whenever my wife would start to try to take the "moral high ground" I would invite her to look at the issues that made me decide I didn't believe. She doesn't need to believe what I believe but if our marriage is going to work she has to respect that I have valid reasons for so doing even if she doesn't agree. Whenever she ever "relapses" on this, I again invite her to look at the evidence and remind her that I have made my decision of all of the evidence while she has only looked at half of it.

-----------

So my main point is the reaction of your wife is completely normal. Yes, it hurts and feels personal. It is personal but it is also based on the programming and indoctrination she has received her whole life. My wife and I have made significant progress in working through this issue - it is possible to work through.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 06:15PM by bc.

bc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 2) Try to work towards her not seeing herself as
> the victim and you as the villain.

Yes, that is true, at least in regards to the marriage itself. So, I agree.

But in regards to her relationship to the Monson church, I think she really *is* a victim.

Hopefully she will recover from it, and eventually see how the church is victimizing her (rather than her husband victimizing her).

But until then, just be patient. And work with her. And love her unconditionally.

But as usual, my opinion on this is probably worthless, partly because I've never had to deal with that issue.

Nevin Pratt

This is a repost of something I wrote on here a while ago but it came to mind while reading your post:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,508279,508377#msg-508377

There are often posts are here asking "Why did I believe it for so long?" or "Why are others so completely taken in by this?"

I've thought about this quite a bit. Once you stop believing the entire belief system is just so over the top ridiculous, the claims so nuts, the history so clear, that it's almost impossible to fathom believing in it.

So this has made me think a lot of why the hold is so strong. (I think a lot of this also applies to other religions.)

I'm saving what I think is the biggest reason for last, but I think there are a number of contributing factors:

- Confirmation bias. We are wired to keep believing what we believe.
- We like to be right. It's hard for humans in general, emotionally, to consider that they may be wrong about something - especially something that is important to them.
- Social programming (peer pressure)

I think the above are big factors to change any beliefs - changing major beliefs of any kind is difficult for humans to do I think. However for Mormonism/religion I think it goes a step deeper.

- Religions belief especially Mormonism is integral to your identity - who you are at the core. Giving up Mormonism isn't just about the pain of changing and reconsidering beliefs and overcoming intense peer pressure, it's about challenging your very identity.

And challenging your core identity - who you are is a very difficult, painful, scary thing to do. So much so that even the thought of doing this is nearly impossible - it's much easier to throw up logical/mental smokescreens.

Some core things with identity:
- Who you are is so much more than the body you have. You are this eternal spirit that existed long before and after.
- You are a son/daughter of God. You are loved more deeply than anyone on this earth could ever do.
- You have the potential of a God.
- This life has a much deeper purpose that you are becoming something much more.

It's a complete change of your entire identity. If you grow up active in the church it goes even deeper.

- You are taught that your testimony is your most valuable possession. In a sense your testimony is you - it's more than just a valuable possession - it's the core of who you are.
- Daily, weekly, etc. religious rituals define who you are and give you a sense of who you are.
- Your family is largely defined in the context of the religion. The foundation of your primary social group is founded on Mormonism and dependent on Mormonism to continue.
- There are so many things done and said within Mormonism to reinforce that Mormonism is not just a belief it is who you are.

I'm sure there are many other ways that a Mormon's identity if defined by Mormonism.

I propose that to give up your identity is extremely difficult.

I think it is no wonder that so many of us were fooled by this for so long. I think it is no wonder that so many TBMs that we are surrounded by those hold on so strongly to such a ridiculous belief system. I also think it is no wonder that leaving can sometimes be such a painful process and require so much support especially when the change in belief is abrupt.

+100
Well said.

Agreed.

My personal opinion is that the family is more important than just about anything.

That being said, it would also automatically follow that the family is more important than *not* going with her to church, simply because the preservation of the family is more important.

I really belive that. And, I'd tell her that.

Most of the Monsonites are victims, including her. Be patient. Be loving. And go with her. Tell her you want to work it out.

But that's just my thoughts, which are probably pretty worthless.

Nevin Pratt

Preserve your family...IF you love her. If not, do everything you can to preserve your children and yourself.

You can't fix her, so as Nevin suggests, all you can do is continue to love her unconditionally and hope she one day recognizes real love.

How is she with the kids? My mom used to spend days iin her room crying and she hit some of us and verbally slammed me to the point that i tried to become somewhat invisible. Where was my dad? At church meetings or work. In fact i was glad when i became seminary age because then i would miss 'fright night' when my mom was home alone with us kids while he was at a stake meeting. I was old enuf to go with him to the monthly seminary meetings which fortunately for me took place at the same time as the stake meetings.

I don't think my parents have had a happy marriage either but for some reason they are still together.

Staying together for the kid's sake if your wife takes out her depression on the kids may not be the best solution, but only you can decide that- and if you would get the kids. Leaving them alone with a severly depressed person is also not in the kids' best interest.

Sorry about your dilemna. Can you 'fake it' to keep your family together? Would you even want to?

The fact that she'd prefer you be a child molester to renouncing your religious beliefs is really sick- she's completely brainwashed.

I have been married to a Catholic for over 39 years. We are still deliriously in love. There was never a question of me trying to convert her. All I did was love her. That was and is sufficient. My folks were both TBM (EQP, HC and RSP) but their family always came first. I KNOW they would have chosen family over church had the need for such a decision ever arisen. They married for love too. Church was not an issue back in 1939 for them either.

Ron Burr



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 06:26PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

It does sound tough and normal for the Mormon cult.

I hear you are mindful of your children, please protect them as much as possible from the Mormon cult. They will targets now as your wife and ward will see you as a threat to their eternal well being.

You have seen the fraud and cult. I support any effort to protect them from the Mormon church. It is not harmless at best, it is not passive, it is not a good default lifestyle that loves families and Christ. It is a cult with expertise in exercising institutional evil in order to deify itself while diminishing the well-being of its' membership. It turns people into mindless, servile drones.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 06:25PM by gentlestrength.

Well said!

When I heard a few comments like that from my wife (although not so dramatic) I responded this way:

I am not the liar here, the CHURCH LIED to me... to you... and to all of us. I just discovered the lies. Don't blame me for the church's dishonesty.

However, if you would like me to, I am willing to follow Joseph Smith's example of how to live a righteous life. I can follow him, no problem......if you want me to...

No job. 30 or so wives. 10 of them underage. Sleeping with other men's wives, and re-writing scriptures to justify it. Living so we have to move every couple of years, getting run out of town regularly. Hiding from the law. Declaring myself king of the world and parading around in military clothes.

Just tell me when you want me to begin living like good ol' Joe........

that's a good response. I'm not married anymore but I'm going to keep that one in the archives for others. Thanks :)

Oh how I wish I had thought to do the same.

Looking back, I am amazed at how brainwashed I was about JS. No matter what he did, it was all justified. Simply amazing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 06:38PM by iflewover.

I was miserable in my Mormon marriage, and miserable to be around. I got out. I have been happy since and a good parent to my children. They are well adjusted and successful.

The only thing I regret about my divorce is not having done it sooner.

Happily single twenty-eight years.

Marshall

Everybody enters into a marriage with expectations. Sometimes they are talked about and discussed before and during the marriage, sometimes we don't even consciously know what those expectations are, we just take them for granted, so they never get discussed. Mormon marriages, complete with the temple covenants and promises of eternal life, compound those expectations of how things are supposed to be. A decision by one spouse to leave the church violates those expectations. In a very big way. All of a sudden there is no eternal family.
That's where your wife is coming from, at least thats what it sounds like from your post. She has no idea what to expect now. Everybody's situation is different, so I can't really offer any solutions. I know that when I left the church, I made the decision that I would be the best father and husband that I could be. If your wife won't go to counseling, you could at least ask her what her expectations of you are that don't have anything to do with religion, and then work to meet those expectations. Give her some sort of solid ground in other areas of your relationship.

Holy Smokes, OP--

Are we married to the same woman? Or is the programming so extremely strong that our wives reacted in almost the exact same way? My wife said it would have been just as devastating if I would have come out and said that I was gay.

She didn't marry me, she married CHURCH me. She has often said that "any two people can get married, as long as both of them are trying to live the gospel."

BARF.

Dallin A. Chokes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She has often said that "any two people can get
> married, as long as both of them are trying to
> live the gospel."

Yup, that's what she was taught regularly in YW. I was given that lesson many many times - it was to discourage us from dating nonmos or inactive members. We were told that it was too big of a risk, because if we fell in love with a man who wasn't a good mormon the temptation to marry him and try to convert him later would be too much. It was better to marry Peter Priesthood, because as long as our marriage was based in gospel principles it would be "successful."

Barf, indeed.

Dallin A. Chokes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> She has often said that "any two people can get
> married, as long as both of them are trying to
> live the gospel."

To me, what that statement means is that the Morg makes people into such similar, sanitized robots that any one of them is interchangeable with any other. Any Peter Priesthood or any Molly Mormon would do, because they're all the same. How very boring, and how very sad. Reminds me of Stepford Wives. They're pretty much interchangeable too, right?

It is sad that Mormonism teaches people to love Church roles more than individuals themselves. It is true, she loved the "Church You."

Also, you have struck a hammer at one of her core identities. She has built up a belief that Mormonism is part of her being. Without Mormonism, she is nothing. She projects this belief onto you... without Mormonism... there is no more purpose.

I'm so sorry you're having to suffer unfairly.

I'm sure you know where the betayal lies and it is not with you.

Sending you my best stregthening thoughts. Many exmo posters are doing the same. Hope it helps at least a little. Take care.

"She replied that indeed it was the worst, because it was a "betrayal" of our entire lives and our eternal beings, a betrayal of everything our marriage and family are about."

Since the sh1t has hit the fan...make sure and ask your wife this about your originally planned "eternal life" together...


You as a TBM man exalted to the Celestial Kingdom, your afterlife was planned as such:
Having PHYSICAL sex with multiple women/wives...and commanding over/Lording over your own planet..

Your wife...ONE of the women having PHYSICAL sex with you, while you have sex with others...ALL in the plan to make spirit babies to populate a planet.

When would there be ANY other time to be a eternal family together..


I just don't see the allure of the Eternal family when your time in eternity would be taken up, just like your time as a mormon is/was

I'm so sorry. Your experience sounds so painful.

You deserve to be loved just because you're you. A dog or a cat would give you that much. It's funny how often humans can mess up that very simple concept.

People change. The only constant of life is change. Mountains build up and wear away. Rivers change course, ebb, flow, and dry up. Continents move. Galaxies collide. Civilizations rise and fall. Religions are born and fade away.

All we have is this day and each other. If we find love, connection, responsibility, and loyalty, we are very, very fortunate indeed.

THEY KNOW NOT what they are talking about. What I wouldn't have given for my ex to just have lost his beliefs. Stupid, stupid women. I'm sorry, but stupid STUPID women. They have a good man and REFUSE TO SEE IT.

I left the church over my love for my "ex."

So sorry you are going through this. My DH used the exact same term a few weeks ago with me. "Betrayal" must be one of those cult words like "blessings"

I hope you find some good advice here.

Is your area filled with an excess of single mormon men that your wife will have no problems replacing you? If she's married to the church then she'll need to find a TBM husband. In most areas, single mormon men aren't that easy to find for women past a certain age and with children to tow.

Mormonism is the biggest destroyer of marriages.

The only thing left you can do, I am sorry to say, is to confront her about loving your role and not you as a person. Ask her if she even knows you (she will say not any more).

Tell her you were always a unique person, not just a father/priesthood holder, just as she is a unique person besides being a good mother/wife.

Tell her you love the person she is inside the layers of roles and ask her if she can say the same.

If she says, no, then ...why not?

Chances are she never got to know you because the church didn't allow enough free time for you to pick activities based on each of your interests and see if you shared some interests. In other words, your marital bond has not been strengthened by mutual personality-revealing, instead it has been derailed onto a merry-to-round of gender-separated meetings and activities which benefited the church but did not build a couple-identity.

Offer to build a couple-identity with her separate from your religions. Lots of people have and it wasn't what the person may have dreamed of as a girl, BUT THEY SACRIFICE THAT in favor of preserving the family for their children, and THAT is because THOSE people actually believe family comes first.

Does she?

Is she willing to even try to get to know the husband God sent her? The one she was inspired to marry?


Hugs to you, friend. It's a toughie, especially at Christmas. Just keep reminding yourself she's just mouthpiecing all the crap they taught her from childhood on...worse thing...pine box...rather be dead...only goal in life...


Best

Anagrammy

Steven Hassan has written some well penned books on the subject.
He really hits the nail on the head.

Please keep in mind that you were under the influence of mind control as she STILL IS.

There is hope..............

Sending you big hugs from this MexMom.

Write her a letter. Lay it ALL out on the line. Say what you said here ... and put the ball in HER court.

It's time for her to own the situation and be the Christian she professes to be.

Think I would be looking at trading her in for a new model, on that is less cranky.

"My hell on earth is continuing in full force with no imminent sign of abatement. DW said to me last night that my apostasy is her "worst nightmare" come true. She has always tended to be a bit melodramatic, but that remark really stunned me. "Really?" I asked. "Would you really have preferred me to announce to you that I was having an affair, or was gay or that I frequented prostitutes or molested children??? Is this really the WORST nightmare you could imagine?" She replied that indeed it was the worst, because it was a "betrayal" of our entire lives and our eternal beings, a betrayal of everything our marriage and family are about."

and that is what's inherently wrong with TSCC. When I was 22 and desperately wanting to marry my bf at the time, I cried, shook, begged for him to read the BOM and convert. I'm so glad he didn't take my bait. I'm so glad I left that stupid cult a few months later. My life hasn't been a shiny apple pie, but damn...at least I don't have to deal with this kind of aftermath. I'm so sorry that you are going through this. It must be like living a nightmare where you can never win no matter what you say or do. :(

how would she feel if you said you have regained your faith in MORmONISM because Nephi and Joe SMith both appeared to you in a vision, and not only have they instructed you that MORmONISM is true but you are also supposed to re institute the key doctrines of the great latter day restoration just as Joe Smith practiced them, this means you are supposed to *marry* a bunch of plural brides including any teenagers that seem to suit MORmON Jesus and your desires for that purpose.... to build up the MORmON kingDUMB of the Lo(we)r(hea)d of course !!!!

yah, now what was she saying about your leaving MORmONISM being the worst thing ever?

Guess what, MORmONISM still practices polygamy because MORmON Jesus is the prominent partner in every MORmON marriage that is really a MORmON threesome.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 11:04PM by lucky.

I feel for you. I thought I was reading about myself. I am currently having some of the same problems, since beginning of the summer. I have three kids and makes for a hard decision. Hope the best for you in your situation. Hang in there.

Life is too short to not be happy. If that means ending ties with people including a marriage... Then so be it. Religion is a choice. If she chooses the cult over u because she can't reconcile things in her mind... It's time to go. She will put u through a level of hell u don't deserve and you will waste precious years of ur life trying to make someone happy when they have no desire to seek out happiness. It sounds harsh and its easier said than done but there is a threshold where u might have to cut ur loss and move on with ur life without her and her family destroying church.

Speaking from my personal experience...

"she does not love ME (and I wonder whether she ever did)."

She never did. You were used. You were a means to an end, and that's all.


"that I have the integrity of authenticity"

LDS Corp (AND its TBM members) HATE integrity and authenticity. The Corporation lives and thrives on lies and deceit, and its members embrace hypocracy.


Good luck...