Just so I don't hijack my own thread

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,733658

Something in the thread that Mike Huckabee said about no God in schools being the reason for the tragedy yesterday got me to thinking. There has been way more horrific acts of violence in the history of the world in the name of religious fanaticism than the atrocities committed with no religious reason.

This seems to be a good reason to ban God from schools.

Anyone who says that God has been taken out of the schools is making a really foolish and false statement. As long as there are believers in God nobody can take God away from them. As long as there is silent prayer, God cannot be taken out of anywhere.
I can't believe the ridiculous statements some of these believers make!

Without it appearing that I agree with Huckabee, it must be noted that it is not just a matter of religion being out of schools but that moral values are not being taught. Old readers contained stories with specific moral values. While those of us of age are able to distinguish values in our pleuralistic society, young people are left without a rudder, without a clear concept of right and wrong, of good and evil, but with everything being only relative. Too many youth are being brought up without a conscience. They will steal with impunity because it does not bother them at all. Hurting other people? No feeling of wrong.

Where people are without values, their behavior is only held in check be punishment which is expected. If no punishment is expected, we have chaos. How much better it would be if our schools could inculcate values.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2012 07:59PM by rhgc.

...hence punishment?

Your train of thought derailed before we got to a resolution.

My study on crime concluded that there is a direct relationship between the likelihood of punishment and the rate of crime. There is also a relationship between the crime rate and the rate of family dysfunction as measured by divorce and by the rate of illegitimate births. These are the principal determinants of the rate of crime.

Let's face it, God in schools means the paddle. It means rulers striking fingers. It means righteous bullying, dress codes, and the teaching of a sort of garbage called "scripture." God in schools means indoctrination, not education.

I mentioned an incidence of theft to my inner city fifth graders last year, and most of them were shocked by it.

For half my class this year, their parents hold two jobs. They can tell you about the value of hard work.

Teachers do teach values. Some of our discussions come about as a result of discussing literature, some as a result of instruction, and some are off-the-cuff. We teach respect for others, tolerance, the value of education and hard work, generosity, kindness, and other topics. But honestly, we can only reinforce what is also being taught and modeled at home.

Morality has nothing to do with a belief in God, or even mentioning his name. In fact, God is often being immoral, being sited as an excuse to act in horrible ways that the rest of the world agrees are horrible. Murder, horrible unless God commands it. Genocide, horrible, unless God commands it. Forcing your religion on others, horrible, unless God commands you to do it. Steeling, horrible, unless God told you all the land in Judea or Missouri belonged to you, as did everything on that land.

Mike Huckabee has taken the crown of right wing religious whack jobs away from Pat Robertson.

When faced with an evil, people will separate the perpetrators from the rest of humanity. This makes any individual think about how they are different from the evil doers. Religion? Lots of guns for protection? A belief that guns are too available? A society with a supportive health care system that deals effectively with mental illness? A love of all things that smell like pumpkin pie? Whatever. It doesn't matter.

The evil act then becomes a soap box for whatever the individual decides is the key separating them from the perpetrator. "I am x. I would not have done this. Therefore, if everyone were x, this wouldn't have happened".

We all do it. And none of us agree with all the conclusions others come to.

No god in schools ? Maybe those republican morons need to speak to students who are about to take an algebra test.

But math is easy! Who needs to pray on a math test?

Personal belief in God is in no way restricted in schools by following the constitutional separation of church and state.

It reminds me of Jessica Ahlquist, who had a prayer banner removed from her Rhode Island public school. (One of the bravest girls ever.) Other students thought they were being smart by wearing T-shirts with that prayer on them! They were completely within the separation concept by doing that... They were expressing a personal opinion. The whole idea is to prevent the government from sponsoring religion, not restricting personal beliefs. No one seems to get that.

If prayer and other religious activities are done in school, the immediate question arises: "Whose God gets in? There are lots of gods, all just concepts IMHO, and it would be a mess. The founders were smart enough to know that.

Actually, the founders did not mean to prevent having a state religion, only preventing a national religion. In Connecticut, the two political parties were originally those supporting a state-financed Congregational Church and those opposing it. The issue of religion freedom led Roger Williams to establish Rhode Island. Pennsylvania was a Quaker colony. In the long run, all decided to allow freedom of religion but even the Connecticut Constitution (until 1965) still provided that all Christian religions had the right to levy assessments on their members. The constitution did provide a method of opting out of a denomination.

To anyone that takes such ideas seriously, I would ask where is god when children are raped inside of churches?

Amen!

And how about that church bombing in Alabama in 1963?

I think its ridiculous that these people are making that kind of excuse. So God is punishing these children because some adult took God out of the schools? So damn ridiculous. "Sorry kids, I cant save you today because your principle didnt pray first" Its dumb. Lets put the blame where the blame lies. The shooter.

Where was God on 5/18/1927 when Andrew Kehoe lit off three bombs which ultimately took the lives of 44 people, including 38 children? Wasn't God "in school" back then? 1 Kings 18:27 says:

And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

--

[Burton Cummings voice, with echo] And WHERE WAS GOD?!

Rockin', Artificial Paradise and #10. I love those three LP albums, captainjackmormon. (I also like the song Captain Jack by Billy Joel, first album). Kudos.

I'm a teacher and when people make comments about how we need to put God back in schools I want to ask, "which God?" My students are Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, various Protestant religions, Buddhist, etc. Which God am I supposed to teach in school?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2012 09:23PM by mistydiamond.

As Mistydiamond stated, which god?

The god that loves everyone or a capricious, vengeful god?

What god punishes innocent children for the actions of others? It's just mental. I wouldn't want such a god in public schools.

Maybe we should ask why citizens need assault weapons. And maybe we should take a look at the help available for the mentally ill in this country. The two don't mix very well.

It's easier to prescribe band-aid solutions like "Prayers in schools, stat!" than to address hard issues like sensible limits to gun/ammo ownership and finding out why violent people with mental illnesses slip through the cracks.

And there is, overall, far more gun violence in the more conservatively religious parts of our country than in more secular or religiously liberal parts.

It is not schools who should be teaching children morals and values but parents. God has nothing to do with it.

I have a question. What does it mean to put God back in schools? I am in my early forties and the only thing that has changed is not saying a prayer before sporting events. They still say the pledge of allegiance, here the Texas pledge (I know, I know), and a moment of silence. So what has changed so much that everyone has their panties in a wad? The religious right is so far out there and down south I am drowning in it.

twojedis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
There has
> been way more horrific acts of violence in the
> history of the world in the name of religious
> fanaticism than the atrocities committed with no
> religious reason.


I read this so often here and elsewhere on the web. It baffles me how this can possibly be believed.


Let's leave aside the fact that the Roman invasions were not motivated by religion per se nor were the Barbarian invasions that ended Rome motivated by religion per se; also let's leave aside the fact that the vast majority of the wars during the christian middle ages were motivated by feudal claims by nobles who were barely christian themselves. Let's leave all that alone.

The vast majority of people who have ever lived on earth have lived after Napoleon's failed quest for empire (Napoleon, again, was not motivated by religion per se). The American Revolutionary war and the American Civil war were not motivated by religion, nor the Spanish-American war. The ten million soldiers that died in WWI didn't die for religious reasons, nor did the 24 million soldiers that died in WWII die for religious reasons. Japan's invasions of China etc were not motivated by religion. America's murder of 3 million Vietnamese was not motivated by religion, nor is America's ongoing slaughters in the Middle East today motivated by religion. As for atrocities specifically, The Turkish ethnic cleansing of a million plus Armenians was not motivated by religion, nor was the slaughter of six million Jews and the starvation of ten million Ukrainians motivated by religion. Pol Pot wasn't motivated by religion when he wipe-outed a million and a half human beings. Etc Etc Etc

You are mistaken when you place the huge bulk of the world's horrific acts of violence at the feet of "religious fanaticism". If you want a fanaticism to blame then look no further than ideology. Ideology kills.


As for what Huckabee says, well… There are few countries in the world more God soaked than America and yet America is the most violent nation on earth. But it is a mistake to make a causal link between America's religiosity and it's violence. American political ideology is explicitly violent and has been so since it's genocidal founding. The conclusion rather is that religiosity seems to have very little sway over the political ideology that creates a culture.

Human