The following question was ignored in a previous thread by Steve Benson but is back on the board due to popular demand:

If a child meets Mickey Mouse at Disneyland, must an honest parent say to the child, "That's not really Mickey, he's just a paid employee in a Mickey Mouse costume"?

Parents could honestly tell children 'That's not a real mountain,' 'That's not a real building / house / castle,' 'Those aren't real trees / rocks / animals (animatronics) / or food (junk calories).'

By the way, if a character employee breaks role and removes any part of the costume in public, that person's fired...so don't try to 'out' Mickey!

. . . and who will punish them if they don't obey their parents' commandments. Santa is not showcased to kiddies like Mickey Mouse or some other obvious cartoon character.

Nice attempting at diversion.

Now, can't you get back to what you do best in your defense of Santa? You know, testifying to the divinity of the Baby Jesus and how you are a happy Christian who sees Santa as a manifestastion of godly giving.

Or something Goofy like that.

Geezus . . .



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2012 08:11PM by steve benson.

Aww, did widdle baby Benson make a ryhme?

Ummmmmmmm.... Yeah. My children knew from the start Mickey Mouse, the princesses, all the Disney characters were not real and they were paid actors.

Santa is a myth.
Jesus is a myth.
God is a myth.
And most certainly Mickey Mouse is a character not a real live "thing".

Y'all crack me the f##k up...

I am quite shocked actually that he wont engage me(nah not really). He seems well equipped to be able to do so, he certainly has the credentials... he does not back down from direct questioning in other topics...I want to know...why wont you engage me Steve? Why wont you defend your position and answer my direct questions? I guess I should not expect you to do so this year...you would not last year.

In fact in my view...SB should love Santa as he is the gateway to critical thinking and paves the way for the disbelief in all things "mystical"

just mystified!

I can see your logic Steve.

just understanding!

In my experience, SB looks for ways to disagree, even if you are trying to agree with him. (This happened to me the first time I saw a post of his that I found interest, and I made the mistake of chiming in.)

I can't tell if he is insecure, prideful, or just sadistically enjoys having fun at the expense of others. Whatever the reason, I quickly tire of his antics.

I wish he would just stick with contributing the interesting stories and analysis that he often brings along, and lay off the constant chest-beating and ridicule.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2012 10:07AM by steve benson.

You went to sleep early so Santa could come didn't you?

ni ni dont let the bed bugs bite.
dreams of Santa will dance thru your head.
You might even here the sounds of reindeer on your roof! .

just dreaming!

Don't try to pretend you were awake - I saw you snoring...

And you talk big for someone that wont go head to head with me...I cant believe that you are so scared of little ole me... a nevermo...who are you anyway...in most posts you take people to task and make them run away... and yet when someone can present the other side of a discussion...you run away. I really am surprised that i have a wordsmith so frustrated that he can only use one word in a reply. I really am. Hell I dont venture much into any of his posts except the Santy ones...and I certainly cant match his vocabulary...or at least I shouldn't be able to...so for me to have this Pulitzer prize winning wordsmith down to a one word retort really has me amazed...I guess like I said Steve cant handle a discussion where he will be appropriately challenged.

just challenging!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2012 05:24PM by bignevermo.

LOL!

just awake!

bignevermo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> In fact in my view...SB should love Santa as he is
> the gateway to critical thinking and paves the way
> for the disbelief in all things "mystical"
>
> just mystified!


I don't mean to involve myself in the 2 of you, but I don't get it. Why would you think Santa is the gateway to critical thinking and paves the way for disbelief in all things mystical?
How has that example happened for mysticism?
I don't see it, please explain your position if you would?
Or is this just some pissing contest. If so, disregard my question.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2012 04:21PM by joan.

"In an article entitled, “Kids Weigh Evidence, Make Own Decision on Santa’s Existence,” Nancy Curry, a child-development specialist at the University of Pittsburg, notes:

“'Once they [children] start to question, you know they’re getting ready to want to hear the real answer.' . . . .

"Curry recommends to parents that '[w]hen the child starts to ask the practical questions, then throw it back to them and say, ‘Well, what do you think?’".
That is getting them to think critically... also Steve likes to use author Tom Flynn as a source...Tom is a folklorist and not in any way a Psychologist or Psychiatrist or any kind of Principal investigator:...editor Dale McGowan published a point-counterpoint debate on the Santa Claus myth in his handbook for nonreligious parents, Parenting Beyond Belief: on Raising Ethical, Caring Kids Without Religion. Flynn argued that early immersion in the Santa myth predisposed children to accept absurd religious teachings in later life; McGowan argued that the discovery that the Santa myth was untrue prepared children to reject religious dogmas in later life. Both agreed that the subject demanded further research by the child-development community.[12]

wow...just look at that last sentence. Even the author of most of your Citations agrees there should be more research by the experts...what about that Steve?

BTW McGowan is a secularist...

still waiting!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2012 05:40PM by bignevermo.

The longer I am around here on Earth, the more I realize that EVERYTHING is a myth. The entire world view is fantasy/fraud. Truth has a very difficult time wiggling it's way to the surface.

As I left the electrical parts store today, I said, "Happy Winter Solstice"... That may be the most truth I have personally spoken in a long time.

So it wasn't an issue when I saw the characters.


Then again, my atheist family celebrated fantasy, make believe and myth as wondrous things important to the enjoyment of life, so having something be wondrous and myth wasn't a letdown from wondrous and real.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2012 09:13PM by MJ.

Just because we see writings by someone with that name isn't proof that he exists. Even when people write about him, that doesn't proove he exists. I bet people here can tell me they have met him in person but how is that solid, conclusive evidence for me?

Yet it doesn't matter if he exists. It's what he says (or what is said in his name) that matters.

Regarding Santa, I don't think the issue is if you treat Santa as fantasy like Mickey Mouse. I think the issue is using the myth as 'milk before meat'(gateway to Jesus) and/or using Santa as a way to threaten children to do your bidding especially during this time of year.

WHich flavor because I really like raspberry! So, don't say raspberry, ok!

Someone's jealous...

just puking!

First the tscc isn't true and now SANTA! And now you say what? Mickey Mouse? What is wrong with you people?....I can't hear you lalalalalala. (Ears plugged with my fingers)

We're on a Disney vacation right now, and while my son who turned 4 on Tuesday has little interest in standing in long lines just to get a picture with a character, he does enjoy seeing them around, and in the parades, and in the various attractions, whether it be people in costumes, robotics, or animation. He watches Disney TV shows and has seen a few movies, so he's familiar with many of them.

Since he's been able to effectively communicate, he has told or asked me on at least a few occasions that it's pretend. I think it started with questions a couple times, and I answered truthfully - something like "Is Mickey real? Can a mouse really talk?", to which I would say, "no, Mickey is just a cartoon and not a real mouse." Now when seeing a Mickey Mouse he usually just enjoys it and doesn't bring it up, but he sometimes will tell me that the Mickey Mouse character he sees on TV is just a cartoon - real mice don't talk and act like humans. He also pointed out to me that the Mickeys and other characters he sees during our vacation are only pretend - that people are wearing costumes. All that, and he still loves it, and so do I. If there are moments when in his mind the fantasies all seem real, that's fine with me. I don't try to point out the reality of things just to keep him in check in some way. But when he asks me about it, and he sometimes does, I confirm for him that it's pretend, but I also let him know how much I enjoy it and how much fun it can be to pretend.

Santa hasn't been much different, other than it seems my son has taken less interest in Santa than he has in Disney. He asked me a few weeks ago if Santa was pretend, and I told him yes, and that many people enjoy it. About a week after that, I asked him if he wanted to visit the Santa in a mall to talk about what he wants for Christmas. He was much more interested in our mini golf plans than talking to Santa and so was I. But if in future years he wants to play along with the Santa myth, that's cool, since I enjoy most of it, but I suspect he will know we're just playing around.

I'm not one who was harmed by actually believing in Santa, but I think others have been, so the potential for harm does exist, and I want to keep my son to be at minimal risk of any such harm. So, perhaps I'm selling my child short of a particular opportunity to hone his critical thinking skills, but life presents itself with many such opportunities every day, and I think he can do without one that could potentially make him re-think his trust in me.

All that said, if others want to present the Santa myth to their children as real, then it doesn't bother me in individual situations where, in my best estimation, no harm is done, and I suspect that's most cases. So, I'm not going to spoil whatever my friends and relatives get out of it.

Also, I'm not one who insists on always being honest to my child. I'll tell a quick lie if it's expedient. So for me it's not an issue of trying to be a completely honest parent at all times. But in the case of Santa, I think there is the potential for the child to feel a significant and long-lasting sense of betrayal, and that's a risk I don't want to take.

Good for you!
just admiring!

No kid thinks Micky Mouse is a real mouse, they all know that he is a cartoon, this question only distracts. Next please.

I would certainly never tell my kids that Mickey Mouse is real, and if they ask me if I think he is, I'll always say no. Volunteering that information out of the blue is a different, slightly more complicated matter.