The BoA may have just used the papyrus as inspiration for a revealed work, the anachronisms are just translation errors, Joseph has to lie for the lord, there is a lot of mental gymnastics to cover things.

If I find myself talking to a gymnast, what is the strongest, most irrefutable thing to bring up?

For me, it's math.

I think you listed it: BoA.

But as you pointed out, to a TBM, there is NOTHING that is proof the church is false. There is always some twisted FAIRLDS/FARMS logic that can be played back to explain it all.

Well, you're shifting the burden of proof, but I would say the most irrefutable proof the church is false is this:

1. The falsifiable claims have all been falsified.
2. The unfalsifiable claims are silly.

Gordon B. Hinckley said either the first vision is true or the church is a fraud.

Joseph Smith's two, handwritten versions of the first vision contradict and/or differ greatly what Gordon B. Hinckley taught.

Case closed.

http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm

Imho book of abraham. There are several reasons. For one, if you read the book it very clearly refers to facscimile 1 and describes it in fairly good detail. This refutes the very weak argument that joe only used the papyrus for inspiration. He was also very adamant that the papyrus he was in possession of contained the writtings of abraham and joseph, "written by his own hand". This is also very clearly stated in the intro to the book. There are also the 3 facsimiles printed in the book, all with joseph's "translation". You dont need to be an egyptologist to realize these are complete bs. A few minutes with google reveals that the facsimiles have absolutely nothing to do with abraham. There are no valid arguments for this one, AND there is lots of readily available hard physical evidence

the book of mormon is the keystone of th e religion. If it is true, then js was a profit. Then the church is true.

Sooo.... if the bom is false ( read dna evidence says american indians are not jewish), then everything falls apart.

end of story.

that's what i was taught in seminary. Yes, i'm glad i listened!!

what's more likely? Joseph Smith was visited by the Angel Moroni who told Joseph translate Golden Plates(which nobody ever saw) into what is know as The Book of Mormon or a con man just told another lie.

And I mean proof in the scientific sense, not any of the spiritual hoo-hah that Mormons claim as proof.

I meant more along the lines of having a concern with some internal logic, something I can raise a concern, that will be hard to just handwave. Yes it reverses the burden of proof, but it is less confrontational to do so.

wood floats

It makes people miserable. Suicides and Prozac scripts prove it's not from God.

In the real world:
1. The first vision
2. Moroni and the golden plates

In the mormon world:
Nothing

DNA...It doesn't lie, provided the tests are done correctly.

DNA science has been proved so reliable that they are releasing prisoners and reversing murder convictions.

The law is the cornerstone of society and if DNA is settled science and it says that the American Indian is NOT a descendant of Jews from the Middle East, that's it.

Gordon Hinckley answered the DNA question by saying it wasn't 100% reliable and now it is. The garbage that FAIR and FARMS has thrown out by way of apologetics regarding the DNA is laughable.

----

Another way science has proved Mormonism wrong is the age of the earth. Tom Phillips gives a complete explanation of this issue, which was the straw that broke the camel's back for him.

The Smithsonian Institute issued as statement debunking Mormon claims that the Book of Mormon was used for any scientific purpose whatsoever and goes further to say there is not one scintilla of proof for the claims of the BOM that a civilization of millions having steel, horses, coins, etc., existed in ancient America.


Anagrammy

PS. Other than the BOA, my other favorite is Mark Hofmann.

How about ...
a) the FACT that leaders LIE to the rank-and-file (then, they LIE about their LYING).
b) 'When the chips are Down' they fudge/favor on application of the Basic parts of Christianity, Honesty, Repentance-Forgiveness, etc. (Mountain Meadows, Hofmann, etc)
b)Book of Abraham

the ONLY thing they cling to All The Time is the org.

We know that a man named 'Jesus Christ' never existed.

We know that there is no such thing as 'The Only True Church'.

Add these two together ... = FALSE

The other items listed above are just more icing on the 'false' cake.

The Book of Abraham, but specifically facsimilie #3, where Joseph Smith identified the translated text:

Fig. 2. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.
Fig. 4. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.
Fig. 5. Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand.

None are right. The FAIR response is pathetic:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Facsimiles/Facsimile_3

See specifically the section labeled "Criticism regarding Joseph's interpretation of specific textual elements of Facsimile 3"; you'll note they didn't even attempt to address how old Joe messed up.

Oh they addressed it, JS identified female drawn figures as male because sometimes pharoh liked to go out in drag.

I liked the idea that you either take 20 years of Egyptology or take your chances picking the wrong expert.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2012 10:07PM by squeebee.

Joseph Smith's own words about what Moroni told him - "he said the indians, were the literal descendants of Abraham"
http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/journal-1835%E2%80%931836#25

Yahweh said in the Bible He didn't want his people guided by prophets, and the prophets in the Old Testament after Moses spoke in riddles and dark sayings for that reason. There is no reason for prophets to guide the people, and in fact, if you read the Bible, it's plain to see the original 12 apostles were never "replaced" for that reason, and they didn't write anything down, for the New Testament was not written by the apostles at all, as most scholars will agree. So, if the New Testament apostles were not replaced, then Joseph Smith was not needed either. People assume in the LDS Church that a prophet leader is a good thing to "remove the confusion" on doctrine. But the Bible plainly shows Yahweh caused the tower of Babel deliberately to confuse the people, meaning confusion was a good thing, not a bad thing. yahweh has left us alone to figure it out. Stay away from prophets and leaders and religions that claim to hear from Him. He's not speaking to anyone anymore like He did to Moses. Never has since that time. 3500 years. Thus, Joseph Smith did not speak to Yahweh face to face.

I've noticed that there seems to be somewhat of a gender divide (not 100% but somewhat):

For men it tends to be BoA and for women it tends to be J.S polyandry - cheating on Emma.

You have to go in enough detail to avoid the apologist gymnastics.

These are the best 2 presentations I've found for BoA:
http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_TOC.html
http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/book-of-abraham.html


And here's a link to the rest of the stuff I've found that I think is really good:
http://www.mormonprobe.com/index.php?topic=Book%20of%20Abraham

Honorable mentions:
- First vision
- Racism in the Book of Mormon & elsewhere

In the end probably the strongest/most important proof is that the Book of Mormon doesn't hold up - that but that's a HUGE discussion with dozens of rabbit holes for apologists to hide in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2012 11:17PM by bc.

David Whitmer's testimony. Read his book. He heard a voice from heaven, which is the same voice that said the Book of Mormon was from God, tell him to leave Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church. God would have been smart enough to pick a witness that didn't discredit Joseph Smith. Indeed, all three witnesses, and his wife, turned against him. Is God that stupid?

The Sabbath day. In the Bible, the original Sabbath was on the 7th day, not Sunday.

The temple. The LDS temple is not patterned after any temple in the Bible.

Tithing. Tithing was never money in the Old Testament, but it was for food and animals, since animals and food are created by God. Money is created by man. The animals and food were given for specific reasons outlined. People who were paid wages were never "tithed money" in the Bible. The idea of tithing as it is applied today in Mormonism, Christianity, or Judaism began with the Catholic Church.

There were not 15 apostles in the New Testament, but only 12.

The law of Moses. In Acts 21, it says the Saints in Jerusalem kept law of Moses zealously after Jesus died. In the Book of Mormon, however, it claims the law of Moses was stopped when Jesus died.

Genetic studies indicate the Indians of North and South America came from Mongolian blood, not Israelite blood.

People talking to a rock in their hat are usually up to no good.

Science.

DNA

Mormon apologists are bending themselves into pretzels, trying to explain the fact that native Americans have Asian rather than Semitic DNA.

Can't be done, no matter how many outlandish situations they try to think up.

Joseph Smith, though intelligent, was only able to work within the knowledge that was available in his time.
He had no prophetic foresight.

Polygamy math proves that JS was not a prophet. Since the ratio of females to males is about 1:1, polygamy will naturally lead to old men marrying young girls or polyandry. Both happened. Case closed.

I doubted for years, but refused to look into non church sources for information. The instant that I found a church publication that admitted that Joseph Smith married other men's wives, I knew the church wasn't true.

The fact that it has no accommodation for the introverted.

For me, it was finding all the parallels in Masonry including a First Vision story complete with gold plates and heavenly visitors. Then there's everything related to the temples...also lifted from the Masons. JS wasn't a prophet, he was a plagiarist.

You can argue made up ga to all day long with LDS. For me it's the fruit. The further they get from the church and gospel they claim to have a copyright on, the more books, disclosures, gymnastics, made up facts and blind obedience you need. Every Mormon prophesy fails, no ore scripture, no more revelations, ever changing doctrine....it a big exercise on covering up the fact that they don't produce happiness, successful marriages, well adjusted people, kindness, forgiveness, truth...you ave to basically choose and value obedience and loyalty to the organization over Christ and facts.