The lead minister took written questions, responded to them, and opened each question to the congregation to respond to. He invited people to express differences of opinion if they had them. Hymns were chosen by the congregation.

Opened with the statements that "Meaningful inspiration comes through all of us equally" and "Truth without love is not truthful. Love without truth is not loving."

Evil

First question was about how to respond to evil; if everyone is really is of divine value, including people who commit horrific acts. Response was the danger in talking about evil is it turns evil into an abstraction and then into an absolute. We refuse to recognize evil in ourselves but put it all on other people. We should stop evil when we are able, although we will not be able to stop every bad thing.

[I have a lot of my own thoughts about this, but I kept them to myself since it is too big a subject to cover in a short time.]

Mental Health

Question about minister's personal struggle with depression and how he overcame it. He identified three things:

Bodywork in which he connected with his own feelings and emotions, talk therapy, and SSRIs. Suggestions from the audience included connecting with other people and living true to yourself. The comment about living true to yourself came from a lesbian member of the congregation, who said until she acknowledged her orientation and found an accepting community, she felt depressed.

Also discussed the state of mental health, that mental health has a large cultural component. The minister mentioned he had been a therapist for 12 years and you can't do therapy well without finding something good in the people you work with.

[I responded to this question with the comment that we tend to see mental health as an individual issue but it has a great deal to do with the conditions under which we live. I agree therapists cannot do good work with people in whom they cannot find something to like.]

Spiritual Practices

Skepticism is an important practice. It means believing in the things we directly experience ourselves. The danger is cynicism, which is a refusal to believe anything. On atheism: "Genuine, heartfelt atheism has long had a valued place. Anything we can see about ultimate reality is limited by our minds so anything we say about God is wrong." Many theists believe in a God who is "an infinitely perfect Santa Clause," which is "a young way to think." "Atheists have an idea of what God they don't believe in and I likely don't believe in that God, either."

The Buddhist "void" is not cold and dark. It is impersonally intelligent and loving.

Question about when the soul enters and leaves the body: "Second Thursday of the month." Any answer is highly speculative. Minister was present at the death of his mother and as she was dying he put his hand above the crown of her head and it felt as if water was flowing out. His brother, an atheist, described the same sensation and was surprised.

On UU: "We are not so cerebral as we used to be. I would have said 25 years ago they are stuck there. There is more to life than what you think about life."

Ending blessing: "Peace is not something we find, it's something we open to; love is not something we find, it's something we practice"

The meeting did not seem nearly long enough and I wish we could have continued in order to talk in greater depth. Whatever one might think of the content, the process was pretty amazing and I am happy about having been there. Crystal had expected something like a Mormon testimony meeting, but it was nothing like that. So she was pleased. It is hard to convey the feeling of being there: It felt genuinely open and relaxed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2012 03:27PM by robertb.

I'm glad you had a good experience. I was going to say on the other thread, whatever you do, don't feel compelled to join. For one thing, that would be very unUU. :) And I think when making certain choices feelings should be respected and taken into account, despite people realizing you can be misled by warm fuzzies, etc. etc. If you don't feel at home UU, don't join and don't feel bad about it. No one at UU would want you to be feel bad about it.

I don't think people should join UU because it is feminist or welcomes thoughtful inquiry or is financially transparent or supports sex education or supports gay rights. Those are all good qualities, and we should all applaud them -- in any institution. But they aren't a good reason to join -- maybe anything.

Join because you want to be part of that community -- and it is completely fine not to want that. That is the closest I can come to giving advice about it.

Thanks, janeeliot. That's a good insight. I don't want to join a cause. So far I like the community and feel at home there. People say hi and talk a bit, but no one has asked about our intentions. I think warm fuzzies are important, but they are not the only determinant in making a decision. My concern prior to attending was it would be too cerebral, which would be the wrong thing for me just as much as reflexively emotionality is wrong for me. So far, this particular place feels like a good fit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2012 10:11PM by robertb.

To even mention a religion exists and to share your experience there is to proselytize -- if you don't know the meaning of the word.

As for the rant about how this is another cult and some prefer science, the UU in my city has sponsored Secular Humanist lectures for decades. You can look up what Secular Humanists are if you are struggling with the concept. I'd link to their page, but I have heard bad things about trying to link here. This is clipped from their site. How cultish can you get?

Humanism, the Next Step
Lloyd & Mary Morain

Philosophy of Humanism
Corliss Lamont

Road to Reason
Pat Duffy Hutcheon

Humanism, Beliefs and Practices
Jeaneane Fowler

Humanist Anthology
Margaret Knight

Humanism with a Human Face
Howard B. Radest

Humanism
Barbara Smoker

Humanist Alternative
Eupraxophy: Living Without Religion
Paul Kurtz

Freethought Across the Centuries
Gerald Larue

Steve Allen on the Bible, Religion, and Morality
More Steve Allen on the Bible, Religion, and Morality
Dumbth: The Lost Art of Thinking
Steve Allen

I, Asimov: A Memoir
The Roving Mind
66 Essays on the Past, Present & Future
The Foundation Series
The End of Eternity
Isaac Asimov

The Ascent of Man
Origins of Knowledge and Imagination
Jacob Bronowski

Connections
James Burke

The Skeptic's Dictionary
Robert Todd Carroll

Greetings, Carbon-Based Bipeds! Collected Essays 1934-1998
Arthur C. Clarke

Why I Am an Agnostic and Other Essays
Clarence Darrow

Origin of Species
Charles Darwin

The Blind Watchmaker
The God Delusion
Unweaving the Rainbow
Ancestor's Tale
The Greatest Show on Earth
Richard Dawkins


Vital Dust: Life as a Cosmic Imperative
Christian de Duve

The Triumph of Evolution and the Failure of Creationism
Niles Eldredge

What Do You Care What Other People Think?
The Meaning of It All: Thoughts of a Citizen Scientist
Richard P. Feynman

Earth: An Intimate History
Richard Fortey

Did Adam and Eve Have Navels?
Martin Gardner

Scientists Confront Creationism
Edited by Laurie R. Godfrey

Rock Of Ages
Stephen Jay Gould

The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll In Twelve Volumes


The Best of Robert Ingersoll
The Best of Humanism
Edited by Roger E. Greeley

The Eighth Day of Creation: Makers of the Revolution in Biology
Horace Freeland Judson

Sleeping With Extra-Terrestrials
Wendy Kaminer

The Nature of Reality
Richard Morris

The Living US Constitution
Saul K. Padover

Rights of Man
Common Sense
Age of Reason
Thomas Paine

Einstein Lived Here
Abraham Pais

Some RfM posters are still acting as though they have the one and only truth -- they are the only ones who value the scientific method or rational though. Hmm -- actually -- provably -- not so much. UU was supporting this stuff while you were still passing the Sacrament.

Joining is for the benefit of the individual not to build membership numbers. Those who aren't members are called "friends."

Speakers sometimes said, "Good morning friends and members."

Church statistics counted the numbers of congregants in different categories: atheists, agnostics, Christian leaning, Wicca and others.

Then they listed the numbers of visitors, friends, members.

Why are you telling us this?

Are you trying to show the difference between Mormonism and another religion, or proselytizing?

A couple of people expressed interest about the Dialog Service. It was a new experience for me.

Maybe some of us are interested. A lot of posters here go.to UU services. They have as much right to.express themselves as the atheists You guys don'town the board



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2012 10:00PM by bona dea.

Oh, I thought this was Recovery from Mormonism, not moving from one human constructed cult to a group of adults sitting around discussing fairy tales.

If it's off topic, poster should tell us. It would save me opening the thread since I had no idea what the acronyms and jargon meant.

I thought proselytizing was against the rules anyway.

True, atheists don't own the board, which is good because I'm agnostic, but there are a lot of people here who are deeply wounded by organized (man made) religion. The last thing they need is to go from one cult to another. The poster said they commented in this religion that they are not as cerebral as they used to be, and there's more to life than what you think. They're moving back towards the supernatural by the sounds of it. This church is still just a church - people who don't read enough science to satisfy their curiosity and need to understand what they don't understand.

If you think there is more to this universe than what you see, read some books on the brain, chemistry of the brain, and disorders of the brain. There's your supernatural.

Maybe you should look up Unitarians. You don't have to believe in God so I would hardly call it a cult. As I said, there are a number if Unitarians here as well as Christians and other religions. Perhaps these posters are as harmed by knee jerk posts
like yours as you.are by religious posts Something to.think.about. Anyway there are many paths out of.Mormonism and yours is not the only one . Hope you were not permanently damaged by the mention of Unitarians. Geesh

My original post asked 3 questions. Why are we being told this, is it a comparison, or is it proselytizing? That's all.

My second post was a reaction to *your* knee-jerk response, jumping down my throat.

You need to take a look at yourself there.

We are being told this for the same reason that we are told about atheism on this board. It's one of many options for exmos.

Telling about a religion is not the same thing as prosylitizing.

My point exactly. Nobody was suggesting anyone should join. They were discussing it.Atheists discuss their beliefs all the time which is fine with me so long as they don't try to shut down other points of . view. That was what I was reacting to



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2013 12:58AM by bona dea.

and just what "beliefs" would those be ?

looks like another one of your strawmen.

Actually, giving a bit more context, the meaning there is more to life than your thoughts about life. He was saying UU's were very much in their heads and disconnected from their emotions and that that had changed. It was welcomed news to me, who much of my life lived in my head and felt cut off from my emotions. It was welcomed news because I do not want to live in my head or be encouraged to. That is not to say I now find the opposite appealing, either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2013 12:57AM by robertb.

moved to below



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2013 02:32AM by robertb.

For Ozproof,Just in case you weren't aware Robert is a psychologist. I suspect he knows more than most of us about the brain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2013 04:48AM by bona dea.

Marriage and family therapist, actually Bona. I *wish* I could go get my Ph.D. and psychology license. Ah, well. I appreciate your confidence, though :-)

Religious belief is not in itself pathological. It *can* be pathological, but the great majority of believers are not mentally ill even if they are mistaken, even if some beliefs seem strange, because we are entering the realm of culture, not brain function.

That is not to say culture cannot affect thinking for good or ill. Still, I think it is too bad we are so ready to pathologize one another. Seems to me that calling someone "deluded" is the modern equivalent of telling someone they have a demon :-) I have also argued here in the past--and there is good evidence to support that argument--that religion can increase the well-being of the believer.

There are caveats, of course. Not all belief systems and practices are equally good or equally bad. Research is being done to tease those out. It's complex. And, of course, intergroup conflict--conflict between religions--can be bad. Mormonism in Utah, for example, is very hard on less-active members and non-members, who have higher suicide rates than members. I believe this is the result of Mormonism.

I am waiting with interest on mental health studies on atheists. The little I've seen so far say that atheists suffer from not being well-liked, and, perhaps--there is a big, big perhaps--atheists tend to less social. I wonder if some atheists, anyway, come to their atheism through trauma and accompanying loss of trust, including trust in an ultimately benevolent universe and God. Some combat veterans discussed their loss of faith in the PTSD education class today. Makes sense to me. But again, I would not pathologize people who come to their atheism this way, though. Evil and trauma are part of reality and need to be accounted for--if they even can be.

I've never been to a UU meeting, but thought about it. I have the impression that a spiritual atheist (Sam Harris style) could go there and get something out of it and not be judged. Am I wrong in assuming they don't press the God thing at all and allow free discussion, or am I being to optimistic?

I think it depends on the congregation, but I know.atheists who.go

It was a free discussion, if too short, and no, God wasn't pressed. I think I mentioned the minister referring to the usual concept of God as "an infinitely perfect Santa Clause," which is "a young way to think." I don't have any experience beyond this particular group.

I am stating this to provide some context for my post, particularly for Ozproof. As I said to Janeeliot, I am not looking to join a cause. I am interested in being part of a community of people who hold values and interests similar to mine. I have not been a part of a community for many years, except for the online community here at RfM, and as good as that has been, it is not sufficient. I need a physical community in which to engage and that shares broader interests and engages other questions in a more sustained than we generally do here.

One of my interests is religion and spirituality. It has been an interest since I was a child, before I converted to Mormonism, and it is an interest that I have limited quite a bit after Mormonism because I felt pained for many years and because I had lost confidence in my judgment. That has changed. I am not in pain, and I trust my perceptions and judgment.

That is not to say I believe I am "right," but I can engage with religion/spirituality again, although differently, and integrate it back into my life. The particulars are open, and I don't know what it will look like over time. I have thoroughly explored what I don't like, with the help of RfM, and now it is time for me to relate differently. If I fail to do that, I will not be living my life as I feel I ought to. The "ought to" is not to "be religious" or to believe a dogma, but to engage the questions that are important to me and to participate in a physical community that holds similar questions. That is not the choice everyone would make who are living their lives as they authentically feel they "ought to." They may legitimately believe religion is not worth the effort, it is bad, or it simply holds no interest for them.

These are my intentions as best understand them right now.

Are you pushing atheism?
The only true way?
How could people be so dumb not to accept it?

just askin


proselytize verb

Definition


to try to persuade someone to change their religious or political beliefs or their way of living to your own

He was also remarkable for the proselytizing zeal with which he wrote his political pamphlets.

The television has provided the evangelists with yet another platform for their proselytizing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2013 02:07PM by mindlight.

That does not dismiss me, only to yourself.
You are intolerant, sir.

and *some atheists have *some of us on the defense

nope, not me today
carry on, I am pretty sure how this goes ... or deteriorates



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2013 02:19PM by mindlight.

Should we forbid ourselves to visit churches once we have declared ourselves to be atheists? Because so many people, including us, were hurt by religion?

That is the restrictive mind group conformity raising its head in yet another oppressive form.

Recovery is about OPENING THE MIND and launching your own life adventure, not just trading one set of prohibitions for another. You point out that people jump from one cult to another. This may be true. They may need to experience loss of individuality in more than one setting. So what? Everyone's path is different.

Like an alcoholic switching from beer to vodka--thinking it makes a difference. It's his perception and whatever it takes to change his paradigm is right for him. Even if it takes longer. Even if it makes you uncomfortable.

One of the reasons I like RfM is because its a group of people who have been where I've been and are out there experimenting with lifestyles and with choosing values for themselves. Robertb's comments are welcome even if they include his search for another spiritual community.

RfM is not anti-church. It is anti-Mormon-church because of the many ways it hurts individuals and families by lying to them and taking their money under false pretenses.

This does not apply to every church on the planet.

It's true that atheists are more vocal on this board, one of the reasons being that there is no atheist church meeting on Sundays where the nonbelievers can discuss what we don't believe. So we come here to exchange ideas and to reinforce our own beliefs.

The many interesting existential threads which pop up keep reminding us of the Great Questions that caused people to invent religion in the first place. Which is good in and of itself.

Anagrammy

Anagrammy, yes.


The important aspect of robertb's UU postings (for me) is the underlying theme of trusting a group. The big RfM point to these posts is seeing robertb learn to trust a group again. Quite frankly, knowing his posts over the years, this step inspires me.

I'm looking forward to watching and learning from his journey.

Human

Right on the button, Human. I will add it is not only developing trust in the UU group, but developing trust in myself to post in *this* group what I am thinking, feeling, and doing that may invoke criticism from a vocal segment of this group. I have done that to some degree in the past, but I have decided to be more out front with where I am at in all aspects of my life. RfM has been one of the harder ones. Avoidance has been a central problem in my life and I am working on reducing it and engaging more fully.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2013 03:38PM by robertb.

That is a big step forward considering the conditioning we had to hide our true beliefs and our true selves in order to have group acceptance.

This is a great place to practice.


Anagrammy

I have been a UU (member even!) since 1995 or 96.

Congregations vary - Robertb has been wise to check out several to see which fit.

One of the things that I enjoy is that most members don't take their religion too seriously. They don't worry about being exemplary UUs so the world will think well of their church.

Some of them get quite caught up in congregational life to the point of burnout and they often drop out for a while to regroup and they come back or not.

As for announcing what his report was about - seems to me that if you read the title you could have skipped reading it.

I post (sometimes often, sometimes not at all) about my UU experiences as a way of celebrating not being a mormon. Many posters avoid reading my reports - as they should if they do not want to read about UUs!

Anyway - enojoy the journey robertb and partner!

My backbone has benefited from this board

:)