I was in a discussion in my office the other day that went for over four hours and included both the topics of politics and religion.

We got on the topic of social programs in America and how, in the eyes of my co-worker, they were going to destroy us. He said we shouldn't have to give our hard earned money to other people when they won't work. I then asked him how he justified that point of view based on how apparently important the principle of giving to the poor seemed to be in the bible. His response: "The poor were different back then".

Surely the poor of ancient times weren't "just poor". Typically you are poor because you don't have some type of income. How do those who identify with religion seem to be able to seperate the poor into two catagories like that?

Biblical poor = good, current poor = mooch?

Your co-worker obviously believes that charity is limited to biblical stories. Tell him that he sounds like an atheist.

Whoa! Atheists aren't automatically non-charitable! Most of us just prefer to give to organizations that really help the poor, and skip the proselytizing.

http://www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charities

I found that the most amazingly inefficient "charity" was tithing to TSCC. It's used to build wasteful, extravagant temples and crap like that. Besides, Mormon charity is all conditional. They mostly give to their own and religious commitments as a condition.

Wow, I've always wondered how Christians, the so called "followers of Jesus", somehow justify their hatred of social programs when if Christ walked the earth today, he would tell the rich to give everything they had to feeding and clothing the poor and to support almost every social program ever conceived.

The cog-dis in that guy's brain much be overwhelming.

Forced giving through taxation to support government run programs is in no way comparable to charity.

I had a FB fight with my niece' s born again husband.He thinks my political party is God forsaken because it supports gay rights and abortion- issues Jesus never discussed, but he has no problem supporting cutting virtually all social programs. I told him that I think his views are antithetical to the teachings of Jesus. I.was really shocked by some of the crap spewed by supposed Christians during the election. Helping the poor,healing the sick and loving your neighbor have been replaced by warmongering,hating the poor and racism.Jesus apparently thinks people should not accept help.That they should support military spending and gun ownership there too



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2012 04:45AM by bona dea.

Asshole response.

I have lived pretty fucking poor. I have several friends in the same boat then and now.

Ask your friend the last time he had to choose between food, medicine, or heat.

Most jobs only hire part-time the last few years so no-one gets any benefits.

"a discussion in my office the other day that went for over four hours"

1. Sounds like some people need to get back to work.

2. Your co-worker has been listening too much (or say, believing too much) from right-wing radio talk-show entertainers.

The length surprised me as well. We had just finished a big project and were waiting to be released from work. I work as a graphic artist on a lot of military projects. When they are released from work, we sometimes have free time on our hands.

...then it can justify anything.

I don't think it's a coincidence that extreme American conservatism and extreme Christianity go hand-in-hand. The cloak of sanctimony lets them believe they're serving God, not their own hatred and self-interest.

"...give everything to the poor and come follow me,"

...Huh?

>> Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.<<



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2012 01:33PM by Stray Mutt.

*Waves from skid row!

When I moved to HUD assisted housing my rent dropped. Just got notice of no more food stamps.
My ward extends 31 blocks to include from skid row to upper upper side. No opinion. Inactive, but of course. The ward closest to me, well it was even in wealth distribution so they did fancy footwork to put my area in a farther away ward. Have not seen any misshies, lol

May we all eat well today! Free food from noon today till noon tomorrow at the AA/NA site on skid row. Will be there

note: my neighbors refer to our block as Hooker Highway but I use skid row. Homeless shelter kicks people out at 6:30 am to 23 degree weather.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2012 09:49AM by mindlight.

I think his point may be good, but his logic is faulty. I know people who abuse the system. They double dip, they hide income, they see welfare as a way of life, not a stepping stone. Unfortunately, there is lots of this going on. It's a serious network of knowing how to squeeze every penny out of the programs. Some file tax returns under several fictitious names, getting the earned income credit repeatedly, while getting welfare cash benefits, food stamps, and working.

This is not an anomaly. Sure, some people find themselves suddenly on hard times and need a hand for a while. One Mom I know has used the system her whole life and now has three teens who will likely do the same. She's not teaching them to go to college or learn a trade. She's teaching them how to get around some of the welfare rules in order to live off of the backs of other Americans.

It seemes that your co-worker was talking about the segment of poor people who are poor because they dont want to work and expect to get government handouts. In other words, they're poor by choice. It sounds like you broadened the scope to include all poor people. That's probably the cause of your differences.

I dont think Jesus would have approved of giving to the first group, but giving to those who have fallen on hard times is a different story.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2012 10:54AM by brett.

Are you talking about the businesses that have fallen on hard times seeking public assistance that also spend billions on politics and lobbyists because they care or because they are corrupting the system to their financial benefit?

What?

I think the OP was pointing out that the arrogance of judging the poor and attaching strings to their hunger is not what Christ did. Of course there are those that exploit the system, they still live in disease and cold and hunger. They are always with you. So the judgement of breaking up the poor is the point. Hungry is hungry, cold is cold, sick is sick.

Please don't bitch about the poor abusing the system without recognizing the abuse of the system is pervasive. Wy should renters not get a deduction yet a mortgage holder get one? Do you like your middle class hand out? As I mentioned, the multi-nationals are all in a rigging the system. If thy are throwing money at it, it must be a good ROI. Shees, the least of this government's problem is an incompetent drug adled mother in Oakland using WIC to feed her three kids barely enough to not die.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2012 11:43AM by gentlestrength.

as he pretends to be democrat and votes republican--we had a huge argument about entitlements.

Let's see--who votes themselves raises? Who has a lifetime paychecks? Why are the rich and elected getting entitlements?

Sure there are those who work the system in the poor category--but there are many of the rich who work the system, too.

I've been poor. I know what it feels like to choose food for my kids over paying the bills.

I love how people assume that those who are poor are poor with choice. Because as someone who has a part-time job that doesn't give me any benefits and I'm starting to swim in debt, I need either a full time job or another part-time job. Guess what? NEITHER ARE EASY TO FIND. And have fun living on 7.25 an hour.

As someone who is poor and grew up poor I can't actually think of anyone I know that was "Cheating the system". I'm not saying they don't exist but I really don't think they are as common as these people seem to think they are.

I've never heard of people thinking poor people are different now than then. That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while.

OH and every time I see this argument, all I hear is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtlaXBFFbNI



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2012 11:25AM by altava.

The thing that annoys me is that the church also has a welfare system and helps people. So apparently it's okay to get help if you're a Mormon and you get it from your church, but if you aren't Mormon and want help from the government then you are a mooch.
Also, I find it funny that so many Mormons are against government handouts but the time in my life when I saw the largest amount of people on welfare was when I was at BYU. There were huge numbers of young parents on Medicaid because they had been commanded to have kids whether they could afford it or not. Most of my friends who had kids in college were on Medicaid or WIC, yet those same people oppose government handouts.

There is a lot of waste and corruption in charity programs, true.

Do these people think it was any different in Jesus's time?

There is a very strong taint of racism in this discussion. "Good poor" are white people who don't use drugs. The "bad poor" are lazy people of other races and "illegals", which is their term for Hispanics, including those whose families were in the US before the US existed.

Yours is the first post to inject racism into this thread, along with your bizarre definition of "illegals." Not everyone is racist, you know.

Ragnar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yours is the first post to inject racism into this
> thread, along with your bizarre definition of
> "illegals." Not everyone is racist, you know.

Thank you for pointing this out, there was absolutely no racial tone to this thread until the post by axeldc.

As someone who was poor growing up, poorer in college & poorest as a young wife & mother, I can offer this:

The lives of poor people are like dominoes. One tile falls over & there is no stopping the damage. Part on your car breaks? You have to find a way to work. Since you'll be using the grocery money to fix the car you cannot risk losing a day's pay.

Work two jobs? Don't try to break the speed limit between them. If you get a ticket the electric bill money will have to cover the fine. Ten miles over the limit & no power for 30 days.

Cut your finger but can't afford neosporin & bandaids? Try to keep it clean or you risk an infection & no money for a walk-in clinic. Only option is the ER and a $1000 medical bill.

These are just three examples--it goes on & on.

As much a folks grouse about programs for the poor, I think they may want to search world history a bit. Try to make sure the poor (most of whom are children, elderly, or ill) get food and medical care helps to stabilize our nation.

If welfare & foodstamps & medicare/medicaid were axed tomorrow, what do folks think the poor would do? Quietly starve to death? Or unleash anarchy on our streets. If my tax dollars help prevent a Fiddel Castro then I'm all for it.

We give to the poor because it is the human thing to do. We also remember that our country is not immune to a revolution.

My husband was laid off this past fall. If he hadnt found another job as soon as he had I know we'd have to be put on all sorts of assistance. Money goes fast, even with our savings we ate it up quickly. It wasn't our choice to be laid off.

Your coworker might be singing a different tune if he was let go... I've heard the saying (and Im for sure gonnna butcher it) we are all one paycheck from poverty? Is that how it goes? Idk.

I went through the same thing recently. Big cuts at our company. I was very lucky to find something quickly, not everyone is.

Gut and groin. Sorry to hear about your job loss.

It's good to see you post on here again tho. :)

:)

I've also heard that most US families are two paychecks away from homelessness, and many,many women are one man away from welfare.

If this recession has taught us anything is that you can do everything prudent--complete your education, live within your means, plan your family, save a percentage of your paycheck each week and STILL end up getting groceries from the food pantry you once contributed to.

Compassion is free. If we can't get that from the "Christians" who spout such disdain for the poor could they at least spout a little ire toward the televangelists? Those folks live off of hardworking taxpayers too. They may not get donations by mandate but they DO get their income from the naive and the stupid.

Joyce Meyer has a gold commode. That's a whole lot of Similiac, bread, milk, rice and beans.

I had to self-edit my knee jerk response. A gold throne, what contempt for He to whom she claims to serve. We really need to get these tax exempt and tax deductible situations sorted out. Too many, even here, are obsessed with welfare for the lazy, the criminals, and the sick (edited) (drugs and HIV).

How do we quantify the institutional corruption. That corrupt woman accounts for millions and millions of tax exempt and charitable deductions and provides no value to our nation. She is a parasite, there are millions like her. Can we focus on the high ticket scumbag scavengers and then go after the people who get $3,500 a year WIC if you still think that's wise to have more dying people on the streets of milk and honey. I live in SF, if you've been to SF, you know I see this disparity every day. The real parasites live in the fancy places. There are broke parasites too, but they take much less than their well-dressed chubby parasites in nice big warm buildings. Doesn't it make sense that this is where the real money can be found. It must.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2012 01:47PM by gentlestrength.

I seriously don't know if I am offended by that or amused.

will wait to see

diseased here, Hep C 30 years and counting

added - I don't think of myself as diseased ... hmmm
added2 - I think it was a slap down



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2012 01:43PM by mindlight.

I'll edit diseased to sick, although I don't imagine you see yourself as sick. I think I chose that word to incorporate mental illness, but sick works well, but less so for HCV. You have a big ticket virus, no doubt we will be spending a lot of money collectively to keep you healthy and I hope we do and I hope it goes well for you.

If you want to check out a racket, check out organ and bone marrow donations and transplants, now that is an expensive, costly area of health care that if we performed better as a society could be greatly improved, but at a cost to those who profit greatly off of the current system.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2012 01:50PM by gentlestrength.

I teach impoverished urban children. It'a a myth that the poor don't work. The parents of my children work, and half of them work two jobs. Have you ever tried to live (and support children) on minimum wage?

I recommend Ruby Payne's "A Framework for Understanding Poverty" in order to understand the roots of generational (as opposed to situational) poverty. The book is a bible for urban teachers.