I wonder if any other elements of Christianity hold the distinct belief that the Old Testament Jehovah is the Jesus of the New Testament? Or is it implied anyway in the doctrine of the Trinity?

The two characters always seemed so very different to me.... which is much better explained if you believe that a) Jews used Jehovah as their God to help justify their struggles and battles against neighbouring peoples b) Jesus was simply a mortal man that taught good principals and it was only after his death that his followers came up with the resurrection story and Divine nature/Son of Man motif to explain away the obvious problem that he was killed.

Most Christians believe in the doctrine of the trinity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are all just different manifestations of the same being. I’ve found that it’s primarily Mormons who get hung up on which god is which.

Most Christians believe Jehovah = God the FAther

"Most Christians believe in the doctrine of the trinity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are all just different manifestations of the same being. I’ve found that it’s primarily Mormons who get hung up on which god is which."

For me the Mormons have a much clearer theology on the Godhead than those Christian churches that believe in the Trinity. You explain the concept of the Trinity very simply and well. But if one looks into it more deeply, the concept of the Trinity makes very little sense, having been based on the same Aristotelian world view that gave the Catholic Church transubstantiation.

The idea that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two separate beings, like a human father and son, makes much more sense. Of course, even the Mormons believe in the Holy Ghost, and there's a concept that makes little sense. Look into the theology about what the Holy Ghost is and there is almost nothing of substance there. It's all ephemeral.

I mostly agree, however the idea that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are somehow less god than God makes their necessity and even existence questionable. If God can create a God that is equal to Itself than what the hell is It doing creating us?

Good point. I never really figured out why there were three Gods. It's called the Church of Jesus Christ, yet Mormons pray to God the Father. That's about it as far as God the Father's involvement. And when Joseph Smith had the First Vision, God the Father took all the trouble to come with Jesus Christ just to introduce him with one line: "This is my Beloved Son. Hear him."

Seems like one God would be plenty to take care of everything.

Jehovah is a corruption of the Hebrew word written as YHWH (Yahweh). The Jews considered the word so holy that they never pronounced it, subsituting instead "Adonai", Hebrew for Lord. In most modern translations of the Bible, Yahweh is rendered as Lord, with L in big cap and -ord in small caps. This is to differentiate Yahweh and Adonai. All non-Mormon biblical scholars would reject the Mormon view that Jehovah is Jesus.

I disagree. I'm a fairly mainstream Christian. Jehovah = YHWH = God. God = Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

This is even reflected in Jesus' Name: Jesus = Yahoshua = YHWH Shua = The Lord Who Saves

At least that's what my trinitaritan denomination appears to be teaching in its seminary these days.

BUT God the Father is also YHWH, as is the Holy Spirit.

See this from a fairly conservative Baptist (I am not a Baptist) who agrees with me on this issue (if not much else): http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/jesus-christ-is-yahweh

As with all Mormon beliefs this is another that is not unique at all. A quick Google search will reveal that Mormons are not the only Christians that Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same. Here is one.

http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/jehovah-jesus

Your link also says Jesus is God the Father.
Mormons don't believe Jehovah is God the Father, do they?

In this I think you find some confusion,since Trinitarian beliefs don't recognize a polytheistic view of the Godhead and Mormons do. For a Baptist, Jesus is also God, the point is that many Christian denominations believe that Jehovah of the Old Testament is Jesus of the New.

Here is a blog that goes through the arguments, I wouldn't suggest reading it, but the gist is that Jesus and Jehovah are the same.

http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/

It is not saying that Jehovah is a separate god from Heavenly Father, as the Mormon seem to be saying.

As I understand it - granted my exposure is somewhat limited but I've seen a couple of Christian "experts" comment on it.

The doctrine of the Trinity recognizes Father, Son, Holy Ghost as three separate consciousness (e.g. at Jesus' baptism). However the biggest difference is that God the Father does not have a corporeal body. In this way the 3 consciousness' can intermingle in a way that makes them one being while still having 3 identities.

Maybe another way of saying it is they are 3 distinct parts of one whole.

Looking at it this way one can believe in the Trinity and still believe that the Jehovah part is the same as the Jesus part or that the Jehovah part is different than the Jesus part.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2013 12:38PM by bc.

Again don't get confused by the Plurality of God vs the Plurality of Gods. Trinitarian or not Jehovah and Jesus are understood to be the protagonists of the Old and the New respectively, and Jesus constantly refers to himself using the same titles and honorifics as Jehovah did.

As far as Mormonism's non Trinitarian view, that is also not unique. Jehovah's Witness for example are just an offshoot of Arianism. They take it farther than most but the idea is the same. Mormon's view of Jesus is also very Arian, they have a slight spin and claim that Jews worshiped not God but his creation, Jesus. However, the idea that Jehovah and Jesus are the same is not unique as an idea, the underlining theology just changes slightly,

Jehovah with Heavenly Father.
Christians do.

With the largest being LDS and LW's...the others are really small...
:"Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God."

but ya know in the end...and i am going to paraphrase Tomothy here: " Who gives a shite"!

just sayin!

Strictly speaking Islam is non-Trinitarian. In fact it is more monotheistic than Christianity will ever be.

an "Abrahamic" religion...so there is a common bond between Judaism, Islam and Christianity.


just sayin!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2013 03:04PM by bignevermo.

Remember nothing grows in a vacuum and Islam is no different. Islam is the theological result of a combination of religious beliefs, including Christian beliefs. The above mentioned Arianism is one of the philosophical roots of their beliefs.

the Trinity within Christian denominations.

just reminding.

point taken

As a Baptist, we believed "Jehovah" = YHWH = God the Father.
Jesus was a separate person.
Holy Spirit was a third separate person.

Trinity = God in Three Persons

Tangent:

I was curious and looked it up for Jehovah's witnesses.

They believe that Jesus = Michael the archangel.

because I worked with two Mormons and a JW at the same time...:O!!

So I know a bit more about Mormonism than JWs...but I do frequent their RFJW site...so I know some about the JW's i have the same moniker on that site as well ...havent been there much lately though...

just sayin!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2013 03:06PM by bignevermo.

just fixing!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2013 03:09PM by bignevermo.

As explained in the movie Nuns on the Run....

The trinity is very simple.....it is like a shamrock....small, green, and split three ways.....class, dismissed.

When Joseph Smith shat out the tritheism doctrine in 1835 (15 years AFTER the supposed first vision), it created a number of issues. Some that weren't resolved until 50+ years later, like Adam = God. Suddenly since there were three distinct characters, they had to line up the OT names with the current supposed beings.

Call me crazy, but you'd think that prophets that are conversing with these beings would have remembered their names the first time around. It's not like they would have met in passing.

Back to your question, it's my understanding that the whole Jehovah identity is less important to trinitarian christians, as Jehovah was god and Jesus. However, it is their understanding that Jehovah was in fact god the father. This doctrine is particularly important to JWs who are fanatical about their belief that Jehovah was most definitely NOT Jesus, but god himself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2013 01:09PM by Mormoney.

I was taught in seminary that Jehovah = Jesus in the OT. This seems to be confirmed by the Temple ceremony movie, no? I left the church before I ever went through the temple but I did watch He Who Must Not Be Named's videos on the subject.

Anyway, slightly off topic but it's interesting how if you take a critical look at the Bible, it seems that the early writers were trying to create a religion that was mono-theistic, as opposed to poly-theistic (which was common prior to that). You can find mention of El as a god, as well as Yahweh. As a result, they early writers had to combine the various trible gods - including El - in order to try to appease everyone and say "Oh there is only one god all along but he's been EVERYBODY's God."

It's speculated that Jehovah is a way to say Yahweh without actually saying it since to the early Hebrews, Yahweh was too sacred a word to actually use.

Even more off topic: Mormons worship Elohim because Joseph Smith misread the words in Hebrew in the Bible of El and elohim (elohim means gods in certain contexts which is also where Smith got the idea for a plurality of Gods). Interesting stuff.

Not at all. Religious types believe in fairy tales. In doing so, they create a wide range of interpretation geared toward understanding the non-existent.

There's nothing unique about any given faith. Its all bulls**t no matter what you call it.

Timothy

My Catholic wife and I used to discuss the belief the God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were one and the same (Catholic doctrine) or 3 distinct beings (Mormon...or at least what I was taught in SS). Now I don't really give a $hit. It is what it is and what form a diety takes is of no consequence to me...

Ron Burr

Not "one and the same." Three and the same. The Trinity is one of the weirdest concepts in Catholicism. It makes no sense.

And then you have Catholic women praying to Mother Mary. I never understood that in my younger years.

But now that I'm older, I understand that people want to pray to something that is familiar, comforting, and less threatening. So you pick which deity you want to relate to.

Lately, I like to imagine God as a huge, ancient, fire-breathing dragon. Who wouldn't be scairt of that??

"And then you have Catholic women praying to Mother Mary."

actually they pray "through" Mary...not to Mary...

just correcting!

As someone else mentioned, Catholics don't pray to Mary, but they're basically asking her to pray for them, just as Protestants might ask fellow church members to pray for them. I don't really get it myself, but then again, I'm not Catholic.

The Communion of the Saints is, I have to admit a very comforting idea. It is however not inline with the idea of an all powerful all benevolent, all knowing, all present god.

Every religion has a different opinion and seeks to define the Creator, and each definition is a bit different, as scholars argue over history and meaning. It is interesting to note the differences.

My view? No one knows what His name is. YHWH is the closet we can get, but His real name has been deliberately removed from earth by Yahweh to cause the idiocy presented on this thread about His name and Nature.

See? Man needs evidence and first-hand knowledge of the Creator to believe He exists and to answer these questions about Him. Israel asked Yahweh to remove the evidence and talk to Moses instead of Him. (Exodus 20). After Moses, this lack of first-hand evidence has caused man to fill in the black hole absence with reasoning and assumption instead of first-hand facts.

Thus, YHWH actually wants us to build on evidence and first-hand experience that he exists, rather than faith. But because Israel asked Yahweh to remove the evidence, we are now left with man's opinion on the matter and a corrupted Bible that the writers ASSUME faith is the first principle, when Yahweh wants us to do just the opposite. So Joseph Smith's conclusions about faith being the first principle of the gospel is wrong. Evidence is the first principle.

Thus evidence should always precede faith. At some point, YHWH will again come in fire and reveal his name and provide the clear evidence to believe in Him, not to condemn the atheists who correctly stand on facts first, but to condemn the religious scholars and fools for sitting on his throne being presumptuous about Him, making up all kind of wacky definitions, like the Trinity. (Duh...where's the female part?)

The ones who are going to get in trouble are those who condemn the atheists for standing on the correct foundation of facts and evidence, not faith.

Now this next is radical folks. I believe the atheists have been raised up by God to put the evidence/faith paradigm in order. Keep doing it. They will be pleasantly surprised at the reward they receive in the afterlife for their integrity and common sense. They are supposed to be atheists, otherwise God would send a miracle into their life that would change their minds. Until then, they need to go on the path they are on, standing on evidence first, and faith second.

I know this takes my post a bit further than the question of understanding the different beliefs, but it gave me an opportunity to illustrate how I think about it. I like to make decisions about things, rather than speculate about things we can't possibly know.

Answer: They are all wrong.

I keep getting flack from the Atheists because they don't know where I'm coming from. So I thought I would make it clearer.

Perhaps you may now see why I am intellectually homeless and why I don't like agruing "god or no god" when someone is being used by God to be an atheist and set the paradigm of evidence/faith in proper order, and thus, there is no debate on this end to make atheists feel they are going to hell. They are doing a great job to fix what is wrong with religions, which was caused by Israel asking to remove the evidence and chose trust a man (Moses) using faith instead.

Esoteric doesn't even describe this. You find comfort in your strangeness and for that I give you props, but I hope you understand it makes no sense.

Sure, I understand you. It would make perfect sense to you if you had a Supernatural miracle done before your five senses, witnessed by your whole family, proving there is somthing we can't see that can work beyond natural laws and sciences, like I did. THen it might not be so strange to you. I was rather compelled to go here. God doesn't want me to be an atheist, so He did that. But if He doesn't prove it to you, it's not your fault. He decided not to provide the evidence.

Exactly, Jacob.

Homeless, you've got the most strange interpretation of the Bible I have ever heard and I've studied a LOT of different religious beliefs on the subject.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2013 03:47PM by cecil0812.

"YHWH is the closet we can get, but His real name has been deliberately removed from earth by Yahweh to cause the idiocy presented on this thread about His name and Nature"

YOU CAN PLAY NICER THAN THAT CANT YOU?

Just insulted!

I'm not calling anyone here an idiot, since we are talking about what other "religions" believe. It's the religions that are idiotic, not you.

I apologize for the offense. I'm sorry. I should have written it differently.

... before that mormons did NOT believe Jehovah = Jesus.

In the early endowment there were FOUR main male characters: Elohiem, Jehovah, Christ and Adam.

The Adam-God decoder-ring implications of all that are longer than I have time or the inclination to elaborate on -- but I will say that that doctrine once believed was probably the finest piece of "Doctrine" (with a capital-D) that ever came out of the cult of Mormon-dumb.

I worked for a mainstream Anglican ('Episcopalian' to any Americans) church for 4 years. The common Christian view is that there is one God in three persons (the Trinity). That Trinitarian God is the Jehovah of the Old Testament, not just God the Father or God the Son. So Yes Jesus is Jehovah, but that is to be a bit sloppy with terminology because by the same definition God the Father is Jehovah and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah. Jehovah is the OT term for the Trinitarian 'God'

Elle Belle put it very well earlier - 'Jehovah = YHWH = God. God = Father, Son, and Holy Ghost'

Mormon and Christian doctrine here are radically different.

Some differences are not readily apparent. This is especially true if you aren't familiar with both, and most people aren't.

Doesn't the BoM Royally screw this up, in at least One Place?