All I have known all my life is church. I just went in active about 7 months ago. I know it is full of crap but it is tough changing my life.

Through christmas I hung out with a lot of old TBM friends and I did have a good time. Sure they have some funny thinking but most of the time I had good laughs with them. I guess I just use to being around TBM's.

Last night I went to the movies with some TBM's and I had good time. When I was in church I always had a group of friends I could call on to do things with. Granted I have made some more friends since leaving the church. Lets just say it is not as easy to make these friends.

Like I said changing my life is really tough and sometimes I think it would all be easier if I just went back and pretended to believe. Pretended to pay tithing to the church directly and do a half ass job with the callings. Oh and date a mormon girl and let her think I believe. Although, that might be a sad life.

...could you really be happy living a lie?

Raising your kids if you have any to live a big old lie, and like if you have a daughter she's a second class citizen and if you are broke you still gotta pay tithing even before you feed them kids?

Hello Rambo,

I don't post much on RfM anymore, primarily because these days I'm more R'd than M. But I stopped by today and saw your post. I'm reminded of some very similar feelings I've had. Even still on occasion I feel that longing. Here is a story I wrote a few years ago, I think you'll find yourself in it.

Sometimes I Wish I Could Go Home

I had lunch today with a bright faced young man. He is my friend, he feels like my son, he was my AP. I've written about him before. He called me the other day, said he had some news, could I spare some time. Always. I arranged to pick him up. He opened the door with outstretched arms, a warm embrace, one without reservation, one full of love, "I love you president". "I love you too", "you don't need to call me that anymore you're a grown man now". "Don't know what else I'd call you!" "Well, my name is good." "OK, I'll try president." "Thanks Elder" I say with a smirk. He repeats my given name with a silly grin on his face.

The restaurant was uncrowded. The lunch crowd has dissipated, and the dinner crowd was a long way off. The waiter was friendly, and patient, it took us a half hour to even look at the menu. It was fun talking to my friend, my son. "We are pregnant", he blurted out with a tremendous grin. "You're name will be his middle name." Tears welled up. "Are you sure?, what an honor." "I want to make sure that you stand in the circle when we bless him". My heart skipped a beat, and sunk just a bit. An old longing tugged at my chest. I didn't answer, instead "how do you know it will be a HIM?" His face was beaming, his countenance bright, he didn't miss a beat, "because you're name in the middle would be weird for a girl". There was that laugh I love to hear. The laugh of an all too serious young man. An incredible young man. It's hard for me to admit that the Church has played a large role in his making. Yet I know it did. He asked again, "so you'll be there right". "I'll try". His smile faded a little, "I know you'll be there." He has no idea.

Sometimes I want to go back. Sometimes I yearn for it. Sometimes I've laid awake at night and thought about what I have lost, what might have been had I continued in faith. Contrary to popular Mormon belief, the road out of Mormonism is not the easier path. At least not for me. I often long for the brotherhood, I miss the surety of the meaning of life. I long for the common goals and faith that bound me so firmly to my community, and to my family. I miss the contentment of faith in a benevolent and loving Father in Heaven. There is much to regret on the path out of Mormonism. It is a road often strewn with sacrifice and tears. It is a road that disappoints so many who love me, and I them. I've often wondered if the sacrifice to myself of feigning belief was worth the benefit of the happiness it would bring to those that surround me. But what of integrity, what of truth to thine own self?

And so it is this very longing, this very loss of contentment, this very affront to the truth which rips at my very heart that brings me to despise the lie. The lie that promised me so much, that exacted from me my very soul, and then is revealed a deception with evidence so clear that the honest mind must yield, at least it is so with me. Where once was brotherhood is now only loneliness, where once was surety is now only doubt, were once was contentment is now only disgust, were once was love is now only spite. And yet one is truth, the other a lie.

Oh what might have been? For me the Church has made the lie sweet, and the truth bitter. There is no turning back. There is no way to gain ignorance where it is replaced with knowledge. And yet ignorance was blissful wasn't it? What might have been had a lie not turned my world on it's end. I can never know. I only know I was happier before. Perhaps it's not bad to be a little naive

you should have no trouble. Instead of feeling sorry for yourself, you could use the remaining time and energy that you have on this earth to making amends for all the damage that you did to those young men and women who unwisely put their trust in you when you were a Mission President. Why not make THAT the new meaning for your life? You call this kid your son, but won't even tell him the truth, even as he plans to name his son (or daughter apparently) after you? Sounds like the old mormon version of "love" and "fatherhood" to me.

SLDrone Wrote:
>
> Oh what might have been? For me the Church has
> made the lie sweet, and the truth bitter. There is
> no turning back. There is no way to gain ignorance
> where it is replaced with knowledge. And yet
> ignorance was blissful wasn't it? What might have
> been had a lie not turned my world on it's end. I
> can never know. I only know I was happier before.
> Perhaps it's not bad to be a little naive


AHHH, so sad. Did the truth ruin your big chance to be a General Authority or maybe even the PROPHET?! Perhaps if you had a lobotomy or just hit yourself in the head with a hammer a lot, it would damage your brain enough so that you could go back to the bliss of being a self absorbed, patriarchal ass-hole like you used to be. I wouldn't worry about it though, sounds like you haven't changed much after all...

Sonoma, I don't know you, and you obviously don't know me. Your conclusions and anger are misplaced but I understand. Perhaps before you make such brash statements you might google SLDrone, consider my path out of Mormonism and view this post as something I wrote early in my journey.

Back when I wrote this, there were only a few of us on RfM. We were just getting the board going, we knew each other and we supported each other in out struggles. I wrote this story close to 10 years ago as I too struggled with my efforts to accept what I knew to be true and incorporate that knowledge into an integral life.

I understand your anger and I promise you, "it get's better". Good luck to you in your journey.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2011 07:24PM by SLDrone.

I always loved reading your stuff. Recently I've even seen you commenting on the news article about the "funeral" they threw for the destroyed Provo tabernacle. But as my credit to you, you were instrumental in my resigning my membership (two years ago this month). Thanks for all your help and for the encouragement (by proxy) that I got from you.

(Is that right? "My credit to you?" You know what I mean.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2011 09:28PM by cludgie.

Thanks cludgie for telling me this. When I hear stories like that it makes much of what I've done become entirely worth while.

To SLDrone.
What part of what you wrote do you think I didn't understand? You were a Mission President, you had a privileged position (in general) in the Church. You liked it, big surprise. So when you finally decided to listen to your conscience you had to give it all up, you found that reality FOR YOU wasn't as bosom warming as your carefully tended delusions(Mormon Doctrine) had been. So you had a moment of nostalgia...

My problem is that the nostalgia is for a time when, IMHO, you were a Racist, a Sexist, and a Homophobe (or was that "just the church", to which you swore your time, talents, labor, and treasure?)

I've been liberated from Mormonism for 23 years, so yes, I'm well aware that things get better, and better, and better, and better! So much so that I've never had the slightest desire to pretend a nostalgia for a time when I was a deeply brainwashed member of a cult, and a Racist, a Sexist, and a SELF-LOATHING Homophobe.

Think happy thoughts. Back off.

should simply back off. You backing that up with what... the Melchizedek Priesthood?

Well then I'm sorry to see you are still so angry. I hope you find comfort here at RfM. I wish you well in your journey.

I just think that the type of nostalgia that you were talking about is in bad taste. Just my opinion.

And BTW, like all people, sometimes I'm angry sometimes I'm not... Seems to me that you think I'm angry because I disagree with you. I don't come to RfM for comfort, I come to be intellectually challenged and to return the favor.

No I think you are angry because you attack me as if I were the Church. I'm not sure how you think honestly discussing one's emotions while in the process of changing life long paradigms is in bad taste but I'm glad you don't think I'm a bad person. I was never racist, I was certainly never a homophobe, and my wife would never let me be sexist. I certainly agree with you however that the Church in general has been and is guilty of all those accusations.

You've accused me of homophobia. It's hard for me to express how wrong you are on this accusation. I'd like you to read this.

http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/tales-from-a-mission-president/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2011 12:05AM by SLDrone.

of the Church were Racists, Sexists, and Homophobes. I'm sorry if you don't understand that, but it's simply a fact.

As for your story about the gay missionary; you wouldn't have been a Mission President if you hadn't supported and personally furthered through your church callings the homophobia of the Mormon Cult. As a gay man, I was disgusted when you gave your chicken-shit answer to that poor boy. "You can be true to yourself, or you can be true to your religion." Went something like that? Well, it was a cold hearted load of shit then, and it's still a load of shit today. And I can't seem to figure out how you could be anything but embarrassed by it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2011 12:17AM by sonoma.

into a cult may EXPLAIN my bad behavior while I was a Mormon ( I left at age 25), it doesn't EXCUSE that behavior or the twisted beliefs that I held. I was wrong, period.

"Sometimes I want to go back. Sometimes I yearn for it. Sometimes I've laid awake at night and thought about what I have lost, what might have been had I continued in faith. Contrary to popular Mormon belief, the road out of Mormonism is not the easier path. At least not for me. I often long for the brotherhood, I miss the surety of the meaning of life. I long for the common goals and faith that bound me so firmly to my community, and to my family. I miss the contentment of faith in a benevolent and loving Father in Heaven. There is much to regret on the path out of Mormonism. It is a road often strewn with sacrifice and tears. It is a road that disappoints so many who love me, and I them. I've often wondered if the sacrifice to myself of feigning belief was worth the benefit of the happiness it would bring to those that surround me. But what of integrity, what of truth to thine own self?"


Drone,
let me remind you of something you probably already know: the above sentiments suggest a pernicious psychological enmeshment - nothing more mysterious or mystical than "sand in the gears". Many, many ways of approaching the problem, but ratiocination and fixation are not among them.


Take a few bricks out of the backpack - you've carried them long enough.

Thanks 3X, I should have made it more clear that I wrote that nearly 10 years ago, (in fact I went to the archives here at RfM to copy and paste it) and very early in my exit from Mormonism. I long ago emptied the bricks from my backpack.

<snort> well, yes, that would have been pertinent info ...


stick around - I can't remember the last post I've seen from you.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2011 12:30AM by SLDrone.

I think you have to consider the fact that there are many people who belong to religions for reasons other than a spiritual life.

Besides an answer to the questions "what happens after we die?" and a moral compass, formal religions provide many members with a group of people and a community to which they can belong.

I don't know but I think for a lot of people this is the primary and even sole reason they join or stay in a religion.

It really depends what's important to you. Yes, it's absolutely lying to yourself and others but if believing isn't important to you I think there's an argument to make that the lie might not bother you if the social/community component is really important and fulfilling to you. What I mean is that everybody lies from time to time. When I lie about something I don't give a crap about, the lie just doesn't bother me much--if at all.

Take it from someone who hasn't belonged to a religion or religious community for over 25 years (I'm 46 now.) I know I'm missing a very important dimension in my life and I'm not sure I wouldn't be happier as a person if I didn't belong to a church regardless of whether or not I believed.

I think it's also worth considering how involved you want to be in the parts of the church you don't agree with (e.g., tithing, temple work/worship, etc.) If you can be involved with the Mormon Church and get something out of it and avoid the part you don't like, you might want to stay in--at least on some level.

Life is about compromise. Those who don't admit it or refuse to accept it based on principle are foolish, delusional and probably pretty ineffective.

I'm not saying you should become active again. Just that there are a lot of reasons for belonging to a religion. If you're going to quit the church and change your family, social and probably professional life in doing so you should really know that it's what you want to do despite all the consequences.

I believe SLdrone was trying to help rambo--I don't know for sure that that is what he feels now (but I'll let him answer that if he so chooses).

To me--as I read his post, I thought of my own story. I lost EVERYTHING because I believed. There have been times when I thought "if I went back to church, then maybe my life would calm down and I wouldn't have SO MANY PROBLEMS" and then I remember that it was the lds church that created the hell of a mess my life became.

Leaving--though I did it "slowly" as I went inactive just for self-preservation and because my life was falling apart--I still believed. It took YEARS of inactivity and just surviving before I realized I didn't believe.

"The lie that promised me so much, that exacted from me my very soul . . . "

I wasn't like most of the people here. My life was not going well being a believing, devout mormon. My life was a f*cking mess because "they promised me so much" and then abandoned me.
It did exact from me my very soul and the only way to reclaim it was to leave it.

it takes time to make major changes and move outside of it. You don't really want to go back to the church in full activity and live it. You just miss the social connections, which, it sounds to me like you are doing a good job of keeping. Good for you!

I have LDS friends and relatives.I'm not going to drop someone because I changed my mind about my beliefs.

Longing for the past? Sometimes I miss the freedom of grade school, no worries to speak of, no bills to pay, no job schedule, no responsibilities, etc.
But, I grew up, and moved on which is natural.

When we long for the past, we are missing out on the present. We are giving the past power over us.
The present is where we own our own power, realize what it means to have peace of mind, and love of life.
Making peace with our life, all of our past, is the natural result of living in the present, in the NOW and enjoying so fully we don't long for anything more.

But I can always talk myself out of it!

I know I missed the easy friendships based on the false commonality of collective submission to the same idiocy. REAL friendships take time and grow slowly and it totally sucks to not have any.

It will get better.

"...false commonality of collective submission to the same idiocy."

A real gem of an observation ...
-------------




editorial note: masonry metaphors always give me a headache :)

Here's some things to consider before reconsidering going back to the Mormon church.

There was a point in my life when I was involved in Mormonism with a lot of enthusiasm. It felt great to be among people my age who I thought at the time would accept me for who I was, but for the most part, was fake and a facade.

After being involved for 2 years, I was judged, persecuted and shunned by many young men and women Mormons because I chose to not serve a mission, even though I was a good person, doing my best and just wanting to feel loved and accepted by others. that was a mistake, because instead of searching for love on the inside within myself, i was searching for love and acceptance on the outside from others where it just could not and would not ever happen. Those who I thought were my friends, were actually very critical, shallow, superficial and judgmental.

The Mormon church claims an awful lot that they are family friendly, while they don't allow their son and daughter missionaries to call most the time they are on their 1&1/2-2 year missions, except for major holidays and birthdays. They also segregate families from one another through this elitist, worthiness scale factor to go to the temple, while not allowing other family members enter who do not follow everything to a T that is Required to enter their temples.

Most Mormons know they will never be perfect or come close to it, like everyone else in this world, so they end up living lies so they can continue to go to the temple. Also Mormons shun and judge a lot of non members even if they are family members. They are encouraged to only date in their own religion because they feel anyone who is not a member of the Mormon church must be some kind of trouble maker with little to no morals. For the record, did you know that a young man and woman who wants to serve a mission can not go, if they ever confessed to self pleasure (masturbation) ? Most of them lie about that just so they can go. A lot of churches teach that it's a horrible filthy thing to do, because our bodies are a temple speech.

You know what, I believe churches have it all backwards when it comes to one taking CARE of ones own body, (treating it like a temple.) Everyone's got to CLEAN the temple every now and then in order to keep it in good working healthy condition. It has been proven by many therapists, scientists and doctors that it in fact is healthy and necessary for mostly men but women also, in order to maintain a healthy mind, body and chemistry. Repressing something that is completely natural, healthy and normal, is simply unhealthy and abusive mentally, chemically and emotionally. It all ties together.

Did you know there have been many studies on men between their 30's and 60's of all choices of lifestyle. The studies found that the men who had the deadly prostate cancer, were those who withheld from releasing more often than those who did it on a healthy, necessary regular basis. It's very important to not only be spiritually in tune with ourselves, but to be chemically, mentally and emotionally too. That goes for all humans and animals for both genders. There's nothing wrong with taking care of ourselves and being familiar with who and what we are.

Now ask yourself, Do you really want to trade a few years of superficial friendships for your overall mental, emotional, physical and spiritual health?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2011 06:38PM by experienceheals.

But my second-thoughts are usually a result of the Mormons manipulating me emotionally. Your response was triggered by your TBM friends, SL Drone's by his former AP. Be aware that TBM's are always trying to reactivate us.

Mormon shunning sometimes gets me down. For example, a ward member will frown at me or ignore me in the grocery store, and the memories will come flooding back, of how our children used to play together, how we attended each other's parents' funerals, how we used to be there for each other as neighbors. I still live in the same Mormon neighborhood, and when I see the Mormons at parties and weddings, it is like an old high school reunion. Ah, what might have been...what if.... I feel regret, but I can not, and would not, change anything.

I sympathize with you! Leaving the religion of my childhood was hard, but the recent abuse my children and I suffered, made resigning a no-brainer. Unlike those of you who had a good Mormon experience, we did not like church, and leaving has made us all much happier! The children and I are much closer, without the cult interfering in our lives.

My father attended, and made us children attend, though he didn't believe. He taught the Gospel Doctrines class, but did not go to the temple. He paid his 10% directly to BYU, and not to the Corporation. My mother was disappointed, but he was OK. But as his daughter, I suffered because I was railroaded into marrying an RM in the temple, who beat me. My second Mormon husband was a loser, and he abandoned me and our children. As a divorced single working mother and my children being "from a broken" home, and having the leaders bully us, our Mormon experience was much worse than my father's. The cult also messed up my single brother, who was suicidal after his mission.

You are doing this for your children and grandchildren! That motivation should see you through your relapses.

Congratulations on following your heart and preserving your integrity!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2011 06:46PM by forestpal.

Although you have made the intellectual decision to leave the LDS, there is a lot more to leaving behind a lifestyle. As you noted, you had some laughs and that is to be expected, your sense of humor is still rooted in the LDS lifestyle. In time, as you learn to learn a different lifestyle, you sense of humor may, probably will change. Given time, you may look back and wonder how you could have thought such things funny.

It is virtually assured that the LDS is intertwined in every aspect of who you are, how you perceive life including sex, relationships, world views, etc.. Those do not change because you made the intellectual leap to leave the LDS. Those things take time to change and require living outside the LDS lifestyle for a while.

With Mormonism you don't leave a church, you leave a way of life.
Maybe my perspective is wrong but it's not as if you were a Methodist or a member of some other mundane outfit.
Mormonism's unique doctrine and practices is part of a culture and brotherhood that makes leaving it behind pretty damned tough for a lot of people. Mormonism embraces people and brings even the most casual members into a sort of inner circle with common and deeply held beliefs and mutual understanding.

The Church to me is not some big evil institution out to purposely cause grief. I know some feel just the opposite.
It does a lot of good and helps many people live happier lives whether it's true or not.

You could go back even if you don't believe its doctrines are true. It's still a church and true or not its mission is admirable even if no longer a good fit for all of us.

For some it's disbelief, for others it's not being able to make our 'lifestyles' fit the mold. I suppose the reasons for conflict are many.

Try going back if you want. Time will tell for sure. It's a tough call.

You said

"The Church to me is not some big evil institution out to purposely cause grief. I know some feel just the opposite."

But it is.

It is a completely deceptive cult that is only concerned with you paying you tithing, and will stop you from seeing your own childs wedding if you don't. That is extortion, manipulation, and dishonest. The damage it does to people completely outweighs any good it does.

Verdacht, you're killing me with this stuff...
"It's still a church and true or not its mission is admirable even if no longer a good fit for all of us."

It's not a church, and it's not a lifestyle, it's a cult. They brainwash, they limit information from outside the group, they extort, they use mind control, and the whole thing can be proven a fraud by any honest person with a couple of hours of research on the internet.

The Mormon Church is Racist, Sexist, and Homophobic among other things. They sexually torture little boys by telling them that God forbids Masturbation. They psychologically torture children by telling them that the thought of, or desire to do something sinful is the same as having done the act.

When so many have to leave because of their integrity, even though we lost so much by leaving.

The interesting thing is that really, we shouldn't have lost so much. They have my #, know where I live, but they chose to shun me.

Being divorced, and left the church for 3 yrs, it would have been easier to stay in the church to adjust to post marriage life. But my ex has turned me off tbm mormon women so completely, and my tbm friends that have shunned me have turned me off hypocritical mormon men so completely, that I just can't go back. When I went to my daughters wedding reception at the church this past summer, I was thinking that all my ex's side of the family probably looked down on me, and all 300 past ward and stake members that were there were probably looking down on me, I just don't hang with those types anymore. And my ex was the one that divorced me for no real reason, except that she is an uncooperative, uncompromising narcissistic superior elitist ultra tbm biznatch.

If you aren't tbm and drinking the koolaid, they are looking down on you. You would have to do a lot of acting, paying and contributing to fit in, lusting and salivating over anything mormon. You would have to post, or comment on facebook how wonderful the 15 old guys are.

I'd rather be a hermit than look into their smug faces continuously.

ps. But I do miss arranging golf for the week with my past tbm golf buddies that have all dumped me except one, and another one that went inactive. Even golfing with tbm's they would incessently not show up when they committed to. I got fed up and would not arrange golf with tbm's but would only go if someone else arranged it, and one time, a tbm friend arrange it with me and himself and 2 other tbm's and only I showed up. I called him from the tee box, and he said that he had to go to some scout activity and decided to just not show up. The church come first with these people, and church addicts like themselves. Everyone else is expendable.

Keep your TBM friends make new friends and never live a lie..it's easier said than done...but better for you.

stormy