and in general, how Mormonism stunted her life. Powerful stuff.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/fashion/09Modern.html

http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/fashion/09Modern.html?sort=oldest&offset=2

Poster "Tom" SoCal January 8th, 2011 3:05

<quote>
Well written and intense. And sad. The Mormon church produces a lot of sadness and depression, not just in women, but men as well. The expectations are so high, and the competitive ritualization of the lifestyle can consume one's soul. This story reminds me of Terry Tempest William's "Refuge". A woman looking for meaning and self-importance after the rigor of being told by the Mormon corporation that you are not meeting their standards. So 19th century. The Mormon church fought tooth and nail to keep women from having the right to vote, or any rights for that matter, and the way are still treated is as possessions and means to an end for men to gain exaltation. My wife recently commented on a book by a Mormon author that she felt his story of self discovery and identification with place seem completely self indulgent and self congratulatory, even gross. But growing up in that culture is difficult, if not smothering, and when one determines to leave the church and take another course, it may take a lifetime of excuses, rationalization and guilt to ever fully divorce one's self from the doctrines so thoroughly instilled. Clearly religion has a place in human existence. Its adherents find community, meaning and fulfillment in the shared experience. But Mormonism is not for the faint of heart. And it may not be right for anyone. How it has managed to spread as it has is beyond me. I struggle to understand how anyone could find meaning its teachings. The shallowness of its doctrine, the overbearing and controlling nature of it ritual, and the adherence to a lifestyle more representative of the 1800s than now seems quaint at best, and tortuous at worst. Every aspect of one's life is controlled, your diet, your clothing choices, your sex life, your weekend and even daily activities, who you marry, who you date, what movies you watch and the music you listen to, and they even know the personal details of your finances. If you don't pay a full tithe, they know it. And by that they know your income. Who wants that? Perhaps in a time when women could not own property and children were needed to run the farm would such archaic ideas be acceptable. But now they do little more than subjugate and control the "group" by limiting their freewill.

So thanks for the great story Nicole. It sounds like so many women I knew growing up, and who still are single. There are many thousands more women just like you out there, even many sad and beaten down Mormon women who have found a husband. Their suffering simply comes in a different form.
<endquote>

Look, I hate the LD$ Corp. more than anyone out there, but I can't let an obvious error go uncorrected. The above comment states:

"The Mormon church fought tooth and nail to keep women from having the right to vote, or any rights for that matter,..."

This simply isn't true. Here is a quote from the Wikipedia entry on the State of Utah:

"Utah granted full voting rights to women in 1870, 26 years before becoming a state. Among all U.S. states, only Wyoming granted suffrage to women earlier.[49] However, in 1872 the initial Edmunds-Tucker Act was passed by Congress in an effort to curtail excessive Mormon influence in the territorial government. One of the provisions of the Act was the repeal of women's suffrage; full suffrage was not returned until Utah was admitted to the Union in 1896."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah#Women.27s_rights

I think that the commenter is mistakenly conflating the right to vote with the much later attack on the ERA movement.

All of the mormon history teachers in Utah make sure to let all of their students know that Utah gave women rights very early on compared to other states (trying to make TSCC look good). This is a joke though seeing as mormons fought against the ERA - BIG TIME (I think you may be right that the poster had that in his mind when he wrote it).

Mormonism is one of the most sexist religions out there.

From "Wife No. 19" by Anne Eliza Young (one of Brigham's 50+ wives,) p. 94:

“The reason of this wonderful act of "justice" [female suffrage] on Brigham Young's part can easily be given. When the Union Pacific Railroad was completed, and the influx of miners and other outsiders from the Gentile world began to flood the Territory and make homes for themselves in the very midst of Mormondom, the chiefs of the Mormon hierarchy grew very fearful and apprehensive lest the power should pass from their grasp into Gentile hands by the gradual change of population. By adopting female suffrage they would treble their voting power at once [due to Mormon polygamy.] There was no longer any hesitation; the measure was adopted...”

Brigham Young’s agreeing to female suffrage was because, and ONLY because, Mormon men plus their polygamist wives would now outnumber and therefore outvote non-Mormons.

Anne Eliza Young goes on in her book to describe how Brigham forced her to go with his coachman and turn in the vote that HE completed for her. She had no say in it and did not even know how the vote was cast!

Utah female suffrage had nothing to do with equality for women! It was all about keeping power in the hands of Mormons—MALE Mormons.

That's exactly what I thought when I read about Utah granted voting rights to women. No way would they have done it otherwise.

I'm going to keep this for my daughter to read one of these days. I was that woman. I married someone gay. My boyfriend asked me WHY. Well, one of the reasons was very much that there wasn't much left to pick from. I was also not overweight, very nice looking, had a wonderful job. The bishop of our singles ward would pull me aside sometimes and tell me, "I can't figure YOU OUT--many of the girls in the ward I can--but you are the one that always perplexes me." He saw my tithing receipt at tithing settlement and couldn't believe that I earned THAT MUCH.

I was "only 27" when I got married. I don't think I sold myself short though either. I married an extremely intelligent man who loved me just for me. He was not like all the mormon men I knew. He appreciated me for my intelligence and my independence.

BUT most of the women I met in the singles' ward had "saved themselves"--and they were the ones who were overlooked.

I also work with some who will never marry because they refuse to look outside of mormonism.

I'm also going to send this article to my boyfriend. The one who got away at age 20. Maybe it will help him understand why I gave him up at 20 and then married someone gay. He takes it hard sometimes.

OH, HI ME!!!

Did I write this? 31 year old virgin, left the church long ago but caught in perpetual limbo. I have MISSED THE BOAT, my friends. Stunted, stuck and ALONE FOREVER, probably. How exactly do I broach this subject with a potential boyfriend? Let's try out a possible conversation...
Boy:"When was your last relationship?"
Me: "well actually..I've never really had one..[insert mormon upbringing and TRY TO EXPLAIN before he runs away assuming I am crazy and will try to convert him or change my mind and want to be mormon later...]
Boy:--RunsAway---

And...Scene.

I literally ache to be touched. Ache. I've finally accepted that this is my life, as funny as that is. I'm such a romantic. To be intimate with someone--share my life with someone, love them--That's everything. If you'd told me ten years ago that I would still be alone, alone alone I would have laughed at you. It's just so sad. Such a waste. But there's nothing to be done. I guess I could lie and "manufacture" boyfriends but that's sort of pathetic, isn't it? Ok who am I kidding--I KNOW it's pathetic because I've done it so as not to have the scarlet V painted on my chest. Sigh.

So have you been honest with the "nonmos" you've dated? Told them your past. There are many nonmormon guys out there who would be very respectful of your situation.

After my marriage--I did choose to not date. There was only ONE person I knew I could trust to handle my situation with delicacy--someone who I didn't feel would ridicule me for my inexperience in all aspects of life. He was also the one who gave me my first drink, etc.

I hope you can find someone. There is another thread somewhere--I was just reading it--about single exmos and how difficult it is. I really think it is a good idea for those of you who live close to each other (like SLC) to get together and at least meet.

I've been honest, but it doesn't matter. I am truly "caught in the in-between" exactly as this woman is. Too much a virgin for one, and the other group is not an option for me. i will not date a mormon under any circumstances (out of fairness for him and me).

I guess I could just go out and do it and get it over with, but that is absolutely the opposite of what I want. i want to be close to someone and build a relationship, but I have missed all the normal developmental steps that would lead to that goal.

Do not pass go, do not collect $200. It's just not happening. Oh well. I guess I could have gone the other direction and gotten married at 19 and have 4 kids now. Everyone dies alone so I guess I will be more prepared than most.

Dating as an ex-Mormon has put me in rather the same boat. I'm rather conservative in my lifestyle, and find that women who seem to be looking for the same thing are generally religious, which could never work. I've only been in 3 relationships, one when I was 20 and still Mormon, and only 2 more in the last 7 years since leaving Mormonism (I'm 28 now), the first of which was so short it shouldn't even count. I felt the same way about the scarlet V being branded on me, so my last relationship I went against my better judgment and rushed into things before I should have, and with someone who I had known for a long time, but wasn't really compatible with, and let me say it was a disaster. I'd gladly retake my V card to have avoided the emotional strain that resulted. Once bitten, twice shy, so now I'm even more cautious, but back in the same situation...Mormon lifestyle, but atheist beliefs, a bizarre combination in this world. It's far better to be single than to be in a bad relationship, I can tell you that, but I'm still holding out for the chance at a good relationship. Anyway, shameless self plug, my e-mail is schroedingers.katze@yahoo.de if you want to talk. (I'm not German, btw, live in CA...and wine country girl can vouch for my existence lol)

Or rather I GOT RID OF IT! I lost it on a weekend stand with a nice older business man from out of town. I didn't even tell him I was "inexperienced" I just enjoyed my weekend.. no commitment.. no pressure... I never saw him again.

After that I had a few casual and very pleasant encounters with other men..

Did I want to get married? you bet.. but since that wasn't happening and I hadn't met mr right, then I figured why not just get the sex out of the way and loosen up.. BEST THING I EVER DID!

After about a year I met my husband and gave him the milk for free on the first date and guess what? He still bought the cow. We have a very close bond and I don't feel that our bond is any less because I had had sex with other men before him. Sexually, I'm GLAD that I had had other sexual encounters before him.. it brings some variety.. you really do pick up tips and techniques along the way.

My point is, it's not EITHER/OR You can be looking for something serious, but in the meantime, there's no reason you should have to be celibate.

...at least in the non-Mormon world. Don't worry about still being a virgin. Honestly, it's not that important. The right guy won't care, and will probably even be flattered. Wait for someone you love. It will be worth it.

Dating is a numbers game. Date enough guys, and you'll find the right one. Look for friendship, the same way you would in a woman friend. Take the pressure off. Be where the guys are -- playing golf, skiing, snowboarding, or whatever.

I'm rooting for you! :-)

Join a health club and schedule regular 2 hour deep tissue massages.

Not exactly the same, I know, but touch IS important.

Come on you guys. NO SEX????

This is a joke,right?

Are we to seriously believe that none of you owns The Rabbit or any other vibratory device??? Jesus.

I have two former BYU roommates both women attorneys, one is 55, the other 52 who are still virgins. Both are returned missionaries, still TBM, both assumed they would get married at BYU law school or soon after. It's truly sad how little they understand about the human body, sexuality or the harm that Mormonism has done to them. One of them is on the verge of a mental breakdown but she has no clue Mormonism has anything to do with it.

I don't advocate letting yourself be used by men or using men for sex alone either. But it's important if you are an adult to become sexually mature psychologically and experientially. That only comes with a sexual relationship in a loving relationship. It's okay if relationships don't always work out into a lifelong relationship. The experience of having loved is always valuable and is not as Mormon teach something that leaves you feeling used if it doesn't work out.

Pathetically, Wendy Watson, Elder Russell Nelson's second wife was a 55 year old virgin when he married her. (And he had 3 daughters older than her!) She was teaching marriage and family counseling and was a marriage therapist for all her adult life despite being a virgin. Mormonism stunts growth but makes people believe they know more than they would if they experienced life. Its insane.

Yeah--it's funny because I used to think "hey at least I don't have any baggage!" but this has become my baggage--I don't know...I don't envy my friends who are experienced but have been in a series of dead-end relationships. I don't want that either. What a mess.

On a brighter note, I had to go through a security and medical screening to get a clearance for a possible government job, and I have to say that that part was so painless as to not be believed! All the sex questions and the medical test took about 5 minutes, because there is absolutely nothing there. I should become a politician! Absolutely zero skeletons in my closet!! Haha--it was painless except for the doctor actually asking me with mouth agape how I managed to be a virgin at my age and demanding an answer. I think she thought I might be unbalanced or something. That was not fun and rather humiliating. Oh well.

The long and the short of it is, I am not a mormon any more but that doesn't stop me from being very conservative and careful with my heart. I just can't have casual sex and at least I'm honest with myself to know that I would regret that. It just sucks because that dooms me to this life forever. Dating nowadays just doesn't allow for people like me. OH WELL! Should have been born about 50 years ago.

Honestly, to the right guy, it won't matter in the slightest. Keep your head up!

I see myself in a lot of what you've written (especially the bright side of not having sex). I wasn't willing to have casual sex with just anyone, either. And Summer is right. To the right guy, it really won't matter... and they are out there. This isn't to say you shouldn't have sex if you want to... just to say that you're not alone. A few years ago, I wrote a very frank article about the reasons why I was glad I held on to my virginity for as long as I did... and the one reason why I wished I'd given it up sooner. Let's just say I got a lot of feedback, some of it rather ignorant, but a lot of it pretty cool.

So very, very sad. Poignant.

Being that old and virginal is apparently more common than I thought... I was 30 when I lost mine, two weeks after my wedding day to an exmo. I am a nevermo and would have had sex before marriage had I found someone I wanted to with that returned the sentiment.

While I don't look down on people for having sex outside of marriage, for many reasons, I'm actually really glad I didn't. But then, I managed to find someone with whom I am very compatible. One thing I got out of that article was that the author felt like a freak for being so old and virginal. For so long, I felt the same way.

Two weeks after your wedding day??? Please share if you're okay with it.

LOL...

Honestly, we planned to do the deed on our wedding night, but I got a visit from Auntie Flow a few hours after the ceremony. So we had to wait a few days for my period to end. We also stayed in an old B&B for two nights after the wedding and I felt weird about having sex there anyway, since it seemed too much like someone's private house. I was worried that we might make a mess (I was very inexperienced).

After that, I think we were just coming down from all the excitement of the wedding. Finally, about two weeks later, I told my husband I was ready and we did it.

We lived together for six months before we got married and slept in the same bed, but didn't have sex. My husband wanted to wait until we were married and I figured I'd waited so long, a few more months wouldn't make a difference. He'd only been with his ex wife and they'd had a rocky relationship, so it wasn't like he was used to getting it very often.

We recently celebrated our 8th anniversary and couldn't be happier with each other. And I'm very happy that my husband is the best lover I've ever had... although I know that's kind of a romantic and unrealistic goal for most people in their 30s. I count us both very lucky. ;-)

" I knew what it was to be fundamentally bound to an ill-fitting life, to be the object of pity and judgment, to feel I had no choice but to be the thing that made me “other,” and to be told that if I prayed hard enough, God would bless me to want what I was supposed to want."

My own daughter who has a professional career yearns for an LDS man to marry. But she has gone the other route, to become uber-active. She is now a temple worker. To me, that could seal her fate as a single Mormon woman.

52-year-old virgin here. Just resigned last year. But by this age, I'm really not interested anyway. LOL But yeah, I do feel like I missed out on a lot of things in life. I'll never be a mother. I'll never be someone's grandma. I do feel like I've led a stunted life. At least now I feel like I'm living an authentic life. I may be 52, but I'm only now just finally beginning to feel like a grown-up. I'm not being held in a perpetual child-like state anymore.

plenty interested in sex! In fact, it's better than ever.
It's never too late to start.

Idealized LD$ journal writing or poetry combined with her odyssey - please no!

Otherwise she is correct, TSCC robs women. This is part of the overall theft of one’s life by the cult. I don’t know if all LD$ men want to be providers, but at YBU, besides the other things I lacked (rich daddy, royal pedigree, UT BIC lineages, etc.), they did not appreciate my intelligence, even if it came with looks. The priesthood can’t handle it.

I am often socially inept, but otherwise much the same as her, except I have neurological problems. Her view, to me, is overly romanticized. She is fortunate she is working, and independent, otherwise predators, and married men would be after her. She would not have such a fairy tale view of her future if she had my life. After having my education derailed by health issues, most men I have met still consider me defective, and inferior. Equality is important, and Utah is the worst place to find it.

Let me Count the Ways tscc is a Total MindFuck....

Oh Wait, I can't count that high, I Don't have enough time....

It is OK, though, because I have my children. When I got divorced, I knew pretty much what to expect in the Mormon dating world.

Believe me, I'm very ordinary looking, but the men flocked to me. I was put in a leadership calling in the stake, then regional single adults. Even with lots of Mormon men to choose from, I never wanted to marry any of them, or even kiss any of them. Honestly, you single women aren't missing much, not being married to a Mormon man, because, in general, most of them are chauvinistic and authoritarian. If you dream of an equal partnership, and true love, you'd best look outside of the cult.

I've been married twice, and in love 5 times, and I know what love is, and what it is not. I could never have sex with someone I wasn't in love with! I could never have sex with someone I was in love with, if he is married. That eliminates every man I know.

The Mormon men stalked me, and easily found out my name, phone number, address, and where I worked. One guy I dated at BYU was widowed, and he asked me on a date. Turned out, he thought my health insurance would cover the cost of his surgeries, if he married me. I felt sorry for him, but didn't want to marry him. Another dated me to convince me to let him be in charge of all my finances and investments, as he had done with his former girlfriend. One wanted me to help him with his business, for a tiny salary, and another wanted me to invest in his business. One lost his house, and wanted to move into my house, temporarily. I had to protect myself and my children. Can you imagine how complicated everything would have been if I had slept with any of these TBM idiots?

I liked sex, but I think a person's need for it is overrated. Who says that if you want hugs, kisses, and affection, that you have to have sex to get that? Hug your grandma or uncle or children or pets. Express love for your family. Be charitable toward the needy and give attention and appreciation to your friends, the grocery checker, the sales clerk, and others who serve you.

Love is more important than sex. The love you give out is more important than the love you receive.

Thank you. You are so right. You've made me feel so much better!There is more than one way to show/give affection. you"re right

Ha. I'm 27, not a mormon (or any religion), dateless and also a virgin. I tried being a lesbian but as I like high heels and high fashion I really didn't fit into their world. I don't "need" a man (sex in exchange for food, clothing and shelter) but it would be nice to have one (love, romance, companionship, passion). It seems if you don't want sex without love, romance, or the possibilty of commitment then men are not interested in you--religion has nothing to do with it. They will come to you when they need domination or punishment...but not love or romance.