I can't seem to stop thinking about this atrocity. I saw the movie and read dozens of articles to compare various facts.

I think there were more than enough facts and affidavits to at least take the seat of Governor away from Brigham Young.

How horrible they had to of been, those that carried out the killing, to stand and look someone in the eye and murder them. My Gosh!

And I am so moved to wanting final justice and compensation or something for the descendants and those whose spirits may not be resting.

Blood of the Prophets
Innocent Blood

I intend to read those, thanks Twinker.

I found this;

a calculator at westegg (dot) com

I was trying to figure out how much the $70,000 items and such value would be compared to now-a-days;

In 1857 $70,000 would be almost 2 million dollars in 2011.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 11:49AM by partymxman.

White trash / Gangsters / or mafia members would kill a person with 1000 dollars that came into their neighborhood on accident....can you imagine rolling into a hostile place with a crew driving exotic race cars, wearing the best clothes, and tons of money?

Hillbilly mormons couldn't stop themselves from becoming baby and women killers.

It was the worst massacare on US soil of US citizens ever prior to the twin towers terrorism. Ironically both occured on sept. 11th.

Does anyone know of any good online links that discuss the Meadow Mountain Massacre?

You mean as opposed to the Mountain Meadows Massacre? (Just joking.)

Wikipedia is not bad. Best I've seen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 12:37PM by johnsmithson.

Here's some real information...

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mountainmeadows/leetrial.html

http://mountainmeadows.unl.edu/index.html

And a video that makes September Dawn look like the B-movie it is...

http://www.buryingthepast.com/

SLC
Proud to have read "Massacre at Mountain Meadows" without throwing it at the wall...
Will and I figure the LDS Church spent ten million dollars on that one...

Other books:

Juanita Brooks: The Mountain Meadows Massacre

Sally Denton: An American Massacre

Shannon Novak: House of Mourning
http://www.amazon.com/House-Mourning-Biocultural-Mountain-Massacre/dp/1607811693_

I like the Wikipedia entry because it is detailed yet concise, and lays out the controversy so that you get both sides' view. No other sites seem to do that as well.

But my main reason for posting was to point out that it is the Mountain Meadows Massacre, not the Meadow Mountain Massacre. I realize that partymxman just mistyped the name, and may not be a native English speaker, but it is important to get the name right.

Good movie to watch is September Dawn. Netflicks.

link to trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0qxsaBkAiU

September Dawn unfortunately, is not a good movie here is an excellent movie on MMM
http://www.buryingthepast.com/

That was a hard movie to watch, but I did think it was cool that the guy who played Brigham Young was General Zod from the old Superman movie.

Frank Kirkman's on line site: http://1857massacre.com/

Excellent video for sale: http://www.buryingthepast.com/

Mountain Meadows Association http://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/

Thanks!

Yes, I always think of MMM when anyone asks me to judge Mormonism by it's fruits.


Anagrammy

From my post on this subject earlier this year:


Is there direct evidence that Brigham Young pushed the "button" to order the specific action? It doesn't appear so at this point.

But I think there is at least clear evidence that he knew exactly how his general instructions would potentially be carried out in the same way that "instructions" were issued to Hutu militiamen in Rwanda and in similar places around the world.

For a very compelling explanation of the evidence of Young's complicity please see Will Bagley's address here:

http://www.salamandersociety.com/interviews/willbagley/

Bagley says, in part:

" . . . I also felt that if I was going to conclude that Brigham Young did this, and make an argument that he did, that I also better have pretty damn good evidence. But that's one thing I did not set out to do (in my book on the subject), to prove that Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre. First of all, I didn't think that it was even possible. And I still don't think, no, I'm sure that if I had a signed confession from Brigham Young, validated as being in his handwriting by Dean Jessee and every other Mormon expert on handwriting, witnessed by all twelve of the apostles, nobody would believe it. It wouldn't make any difference. So I recognized that it was foolish to try to build a polemic, to try to prove something. So what I realized was that no one's ever told this story very well.

This is an incredible story. It is an awful tale, but it is an American tragedy. First of all, it's an American crime, and it is an incredible epic story. So I thought, look, if I can tell this story accurately and fairly, tell what happened and when---and I believe chronology is a key to understanding history. I'm of the school of history that believes one damn thing happens after another, and that chance plays an enormous role in human history. And that if you want to track an event, look at the sequence of events. In many ways, chronology is the key to figuring out the basic parameters about Meadows.

Here's an example: The Fancher party doesn't get to Cedar City until Friday evening, September 4th. On Monday morning, September 7th, they are attacked by a large force of Mormons and Indians. And these Indians are allegedly assembled all the way from the Muddy River, which is 80-90 miles away from Mountain Meadows, all the way up to Cedar City, which is a span of 120 miles.

But guess what? You can't get pissed off on Friday night, and organize an orchestrated military attack on the Fancher train over the weekend! You simply can't get your people there to do it. So what does that tell you? It means that whoever ordered this event did it before the Fancher party got to southern Utah. It was ordered before they got there. Whatever they did in southern Utah was irrelevant. It didn't matter. Their fate had already been determined elsewhere."

Bagley believes Young ordered the murders, he says:

"Why do I believe this? I believe it because that's what Brigham Young said had happened. I want to read the quote. This was stated, I believe, on the 30th of May 1861. The week before, Brigham Young had gone through Mountain Meadows, and he had come to the site of the grave where after two years, the U. S. Army had arrived, and found the bones of these people still littered on the ground.

They found tresses of hair scattered about, found the clothing of women and children, and they gathered up the remains they could find, and they interred them in several different graves. At the site of the wagon siege, they put the bodies in the siege pits they'd dug to defend themselves, gave them a military burial, orienting them as they would fallen soldiers, and then raised a cairn above their grave. At the top, they put a verse from Romans, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

Brigham Young showed up with an entourage of 120 people, riding in his carriage, rode up, looked at the monument with the inscription and said, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, and I have taken a little." And he raised his arm to the square, and as Dimmick Huntington told his granddaughter Juanita Brooks, "Within five minutes, not one rock was standing on another."

A week later, after preaching at John D. Lee's [?], "President Young said The company that was used up at Mountain Meadows were the fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, and connections of those that murdered the prophets. They merited their fate, and the only thing that ever troubled him was the lives of the women and children, but that under the circumstances, this could not be avoided."


This fish sticks from the head down.


SL Cabbie offers this perspective:

"John D. Lee notes that George A. Smith, whose journey to the southern settlements, began just after the doomed wagon train arrived in this valley, asked him cryptically if the Southern Utahans would make things "lively" for the emigrants.

Smith's extensive "smears" of the emigrants began on the trip south and included fabrications implying they'd been involved in the murders of Joseph and Hyrum, poisoned the running spring, etc. His presence is only "circumstantial," but it is entirely reasonable to believe he carried the order from Young via word-of-mouth.

Bagley and Bigler's "Innocent Blood: Essential Narratives of the Mountain Meadows Massacre" reproduces much of the surviving original source material, and I consider it essential for serious students of the subject.

http://www.amazon.com/Innocent-Blood-Essential-Narratives-Mountain/dp/0870623621

For me, the critical issue is whether 50-80 priesthood holders would willingly participate in a cold-blooded slaughter without sanction from the leadership in Salt Lake. I don't believe they would."


I agree. Anyone wanting to see the actual text of George Albert Smith's highly inflammatory speech can see it here.

www.truthandgrace.com/1857GeorgeSmithSermon0913.htm

Note also that Bagley cites firsthand evidence that many "priesthood holders" who participated in the murders believed that they themselves would be killed if they didn't do it. Who believes that the mormon leaders who threatened death to worthy members just did this on their own? Not me.

Shades of Rwanda and Srebrenca indeed?!!

Rodolfo was the one who first passed word on to me about this one... (yeah, he got the information from Will Bagley)

http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-earliest-written-account-of-the-mountain-meadows-massacre/

Now would somebody in Utah please do something about this weather? Seriously... I make money in the cold, but this stuff has me over the edge...

Gonna look for a few Internet trolls to blood atone...

This is like the Nazi's owning a Holocaust memorial site.

Until the public outcry made them take it down.

http://1857massacre.com/MMM/john_lee_statue.htm

Even if we accept the Church's white-washed version of what
happened it's still extremely troubling.

Supposedly, BY had nothing to do with it, right? OK. let's
tentatively accept that for the sake of argument.

Then we're left with this. The local church leadership (not a
few 'renegade Mormons') organized the whole thing. These were
people who knew Brigham Young intimately. Who had sat with
him many times receiving counsel; some of them had known and
worked with Brigham for years. It included at least one
"adopted son" of Brigham Young.

When faced with a group of pioneers on their way to California
they sent a rider to Brigham Young to ask what to do. When
the rider didn't return in time they did what was, in their
best understanding, what Brigham Young would have wanted them
to do--they murdered 120 men, women, and children.

Now think of that. The local Church leadership who knew
Brigham Young intimately and who were acting in their Church
capacity doing their best understanding of what Brigham Young
would want them to do committed mass murder.

And this is when we ACCEPT the church's white-washed version
of the facts.

Good point. Brigham Young's actions after the massacre too are telling.

There's no way to spin the Mountain Meadows Massacre as anything but a horrific atrocity and a subsequent cover-up. You might be able to spin toilet cleaning as a faith-promoting experience. But even 150 years later the Mountain Meadows Massacre still must test the faith of any member who knows about it. Nothing about it speaks well of the Mormon Church, even what its leaders say and do today.

DECADES ago when I was a kid I saw my Dad's copy of Juanita
Brooks' "Mountain Meadows Massacre" on the shelf with his Church-
related books. I naturally assumed it was about when a bunch of
Mormons were massacred by the evil, persecuting mob.

So I picked it up and started leafing through it. Imagine my
bewilderment when it finally dawned on me that it was about
Mormons mass murdering non-Mormons.

topping

I think the church is afraid of the forensic analysis that started to be done in 2001. It showed bullet holes in uncovered skulls that belonged to women and children. Which would not match the accounts of the women and children being blugdeoned and killed by the Indian's knives.

Some of the people that got killed still had garments on? Wow, this is sick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 07:31PM by partymxman.

Son of Bitches have never been out to my farm to shovel me out....

Ron Burr