i have been reading a fair few storys of rape / abuse on this forum recently and there is something that has always bugged me from many years ago when i was a TBM.

This i should point out, is a UK story.

Myself and a fiend (whom i still know) were home teachers and were called by one of our "sisters" one night in a distressed state.

We of course went straight round there.

We found her, clothes ripped, obviously physically hurt and in a total emotional mess.

She said "ive been raped"

She had been raped, no doubt, 100% obvious.

We, being young, called the bishop.

He arrived.

he questioned her,
"how do you know you've been raped?, are you sure?"

Although this might seem trivial, i remember struggling to try and excuse him, reconcile 'the obvious' with 'his statement'.

both myself and my friend were lost for words, and to this day, some 16 years on, remember the events of that evening

But we dont really remember that evening because of her, more because we are angry at ourselves.


We didnt call the police, we called the bishop.
And instead of leaving her with caring people, left her to a morg bishop who probably went on to try and convince her it was all a dream.

i don't know what happened to her, never saw her again.
But we still rememeber that one line

"how do you know youve been raped"

Of all the stupid, dumb, naive and "just wrong" things to say.
Why did he say it ? to see the look on her face .. it was just WRONG

what did he expect her to say ? i think a woman knows if shes been raped.
Especially when it was someone like her, a hardworking individual who ran her own shop, was not a scrounger or a drama queen.


We still feel ashamed we never followed up, but we were good TBM's.

enough said.

i am very sorry i ever got involved with such an oppresive, sexist and abusive cult.

i should also add,

after the bishop arrived we were asked to leave.
He had someone else from the ward with him, one of his councillors as i remember.

Looking back we both got the distinct impression the first thing they were trying to establish was who else was involved....

We simply left, feeling confident the situation was in safe hands, after all, it was in the hands of the local leadership.....

A good friend of mine was raped. She did everything right following the horrible moment, like not showering and calling the police ASAP. However, her treatment from the mormon doctors and police were almost as offensive as the attack itself. They asked her what she'd been wearing, how had she been acting and did she lead the attacker to think she wanted sex. Also, the big question was, did she ever say NO?

I don't know if this is typical treatment for rape victims but it is appalling all the same.

You would like to have done better. You would do better now. If you feel a need to do something, you could try finding and contacting the woman to find out what happened. If not that, contribute to a local women's shelter in some way.

Believe it or not, the cops don't treat victims much better. You didn't do anything additionally bad to her by calling your bishop. Evidence of that is everywhere-court proceeding, blogs like the curvature, almost every victim who did report it, etc. Cops ask insensitive questions and tend to not do anything about the rape. If it goes to trial the victim gets put on trial instead of the accused. TSCC is a patriarchy, just like the criminal justice system, so don't feel too bad. Neither option is all that great for victims. If the cultural message of TSCC and society in general regarding women and sex would change then maybe rape would get taken seriously. Right now all women are treated like objects that degrade in value upon sexual use- we are gatekeepers of sex, rather than participants. When women have sex they are dirty or sinful instead of experienced. The idea that rape is ambiguous or that there are good reasons for women to make it up would vanish if a reasonable attitude towards female sexuality was the norm. If you took your friend to the cops, what are the chances that the cops would have been some mormon dude? if you are in Utah then the chances are really high, and the same attitude would have been present in the questioning. The whole "its better to die than give up your virtue" thing from the church probably hurt your friend a lot. The response of a community and family to a victim of sexual violence is a strong determinant of how well a victim will recover- the church would have hurt her later even if you hadn't called them.

Life is full of regrets, and with the big regrets you will eventually have to come to terms with the fact that you did the best you could. Really. You did the best that you could at the time and there isn't any shame in that. I am not so deluded that I think that anyone else would have done something better or different in your shoes. The person who is at fault the most is the one who raped her, you were dealing with a foreign and scary situation that HE caused, not you. You dealt with it in the only way you knew how, and it seems like you are blaming yourself for the bishop acting like a jerk. The bishops are supposed to be trained in dealing with this kind of thing, and you cannot be responsible for their behavior.

If you can find that woman and tell her how you feel, that you are sorry, it might make for some healing for the both of you. I cannot imagine her thinking that you deserve to feel this badly though, really. If it had happened to you I would imagine you would feel the most anger towards the rapist and the bishop instead of friends who tried to help.

The bottom line is (I'm not trying to offend men in general, I'm just making a point)-- We still live in a male-dominated society.

Almost EVERY man (even a nice one) has been in a situation where he was extremely turned on by someone, but that person did not want sex. And he was extremely frustrated. I think the reason very little is done about rape, is because many men actually sympathize, especially with with the whole "date rape" scenario. Its like they feel sorry that the attacker was stuck in a situation where he lost control.

I'm going to tell you all something, because it was a HUGE shock to us, but I think its important that all people (especially women) know this, so we can have a good idea of what we are dealing with out there in the world: At my first college, after a local young woman (not a student) in our area was raped at a party, there was the typical defense claim from the guy that she "led him on" and it was all the fault of alcohol, bla, bla, bla.

So as a project in our Sociology class, some of my female classmates and I went around with a shoebox with a slit cut in the top as a makeshift "voting box" and some leaflets and pens to take a short pole from the men on campus. This is what was printed on the leaflet:

"This question is for a project in our Sociology class, and it is in regards to the recent sexual assault case of (insert victim name here). Please feel free to give your complete honest opinion, as your answers will be completely confidential, no names required.

Question:

If you were completely alone with someone you were attracted to, and you were extremely excited and badly wanted to have sex at the moment-- What would your reaction be if that person said no?"

Well, we agreed that we would ask at least 100 guys, giving them multiple choice answers to circle. We told them to fold up the paper after answering, and drop it through the slit in the box to ensure anonymity. Here is a general summery of their responses, by percentage:

(about 5%)
1-- I would just stop. That's what a gentleman would do.

(about 5%)
2-- I would stop, but I would be really frustrated/upset.

(about 60%)
3-- It would be extremely difficult to stop, and I probably would not, at least not very easily. But but I won't force them either. I would most likely keep trying to seduce them. Most of the time, you can get someone to change their mind, and the first "no" is just a pride/honor thing.

(about 15%)
4-- Its best not to get in that situation with me, because its very hard for me to stop when I'm like that. I'm afraid I might lose control, especially if I were drunk.

(about 15%)
5-- Its wrong to be off alone with a guy, let him get excited, and then say no. Everyone knows that. So if someone is going to be stupid enough to put themselves in that situation... Then I say they deserve whatever they get.

Let me tell you, this poll was a REAL eye opener for us! We basically learned that the majority of guys would never force someone (although a disturbingly high number either might or would)... But the bottom line was, weather they forced you, or simply continued trying to seduce/romance you-- 90% of the guys out there WILL NOT just stop when you ask them to.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2011 07:18PM by melissa3839.

They do need to ask certain questions of the victim in order to ascertain if she is telling the truth. It can and should be done with sensitivty, but the police are in the business of gathering evidence, answering questions about what happpend and determining the truth. Some women do lie. That said, the victim should be treated with sensitivity unless there is a very good reason to doubt her story.

The numbers are so out of skew because so few actually get help unless it was violent. Even then, they are reluctant and feel somehow at fault. Do some women lie? Of course...However, each case should be treated as if the victim is telling the truth...not like she has the burden of proof. There is a rape kit that can be done at a hospital as well as an examination. It can detect sperm, level of trauma to the area, etc.

Yes, police officers are required to ask questions...but it doesn't need to be done incorrectly. In my local area, it is conducted by a special team of FEMALE police officers trained...and also there is a special SART team (special rape advocates to include medical and clergy). The woman is interviewed in a non-threatening way and in the most comfortable manner possible. AFTER medical treatment is taken care of.

SilkRose (not logged in) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The numbers are so out of skew because so few
> actually get help unless it was violent. Even
> then, they are reluctant and feel somehow at
> fault. Do some women lie? Of course...However,
> each case should be treated as if the victim is
> telling the truth...not like she has the burden of
> proof. There is a rape kit that can be done at a
> hospital as well as an examination. It can detect
> sperm, level of trauma to the area, etc.
>
> Yes, police officers are required to ask
> questions...but it doesn't need to be done
> incorrectly. In my local area, it is conducted by
> a special team of FEMALE police officers
> trained...and also there is a special SART team
> (special rape advocates to include medical and
> clergy). The woman is interviewed in a
> non-threatening way and in the most comfortable
> manner possible. AFTER medical treatment is taken
> care of.

Agreed. The police should have training in how to handle things sensitively and the victim should not be treated as if she is lying unless the police have very good reason to think she is.And I mean something that is pretty much undeniable .However, questions have to be asked and an exam needs to be done and it is going to be unpleasant regardless of how sensitive the officers are.No matter how compassionate the police are, I think many rapes will still be unreported because some women will just feel it isn't worth the hassle. That is unfortunate

I always bring along a back-up slice of cheesecake and two forks. If I show up with cheesecake, then you know I'm going to make a pass. If it's rejected, then we eat the cheesecake because, as we all know, good cheesecake is better than sex.

Again, if I show up with cheesecake, then "game on"!

Just sayin'...

Ron

TDJ your post just made me remember an incident from my childhood. I'll post the details in a new thread.

I do remember reading in the new church handbook that abortion is acceptable in an instance of "forcible" rape. I remember wondering, "is there any other kind?"

In my opinion, reasonable care should be taken to determine if the victim is really a victim or a liar with buyers remorse, or something similar. The prosecutor has the burden of proof in a rape case, not the victim. The criminal justice system should find a way to adjudicate the matter with the least possible impact to the victim. Then through counseling, etc, the victim can hopefully be helped to know they are not to blame in any way, where the full blame lies with the perpetrator.

Parents and society could do a better job educating kids on civility, good manners and dating etiquette. Even though kids are kids, they should know better than to force themselves onto someone else.

My Sister was attacked and raped. I will not go into details of what happened to the offender, but let is rest with he pisses into a bag for the rest of his life. I take a dim view of men that attack women.

I was raped and although my rapist (my boss at the time) pleaded guilty immediately, I still was questioned. Questions the lawyer asked me that the judge allowed were:
1. Was I wearing a skirt?
2. Was I wearing pink?
3. Was my hair up or down?
4. Did I show up for work with any drugs in my system?
5. Had I ever made prolonged eye contact with my boss?
6. Was I a virgin or no?
7. Was I menstruating at the time?

I'm not sure what any of those things had to do with rape. I was in tears as I was questioned.
He had already pleaded guilty, and yet I, as the survivor, was still grilled this way.
I don't think it's a male-dominated society thing, I think it's a douche bag thing. I hope anyone who ever puts a rape survivor through that kind of guilt-trip or doubt experiences this kind of trauma from the other side, so they can see how damaging it is.