Ok, here is my background in a nut shell. I began having real doubts about the church starting at about 17 years old. As my 19th birthday approached, I knew there was no way in hell I was going on a mission. After taking a lot of shit for skipping the mission, I decided it was time for me and TSCC to part ways.

At the time, I was terrified my family would disown me. They are EXTREMELY devout. They didn't take me not going on a mission very well at all. I didn't know what would happen if I left the church all together.

Now I'm about to turn 25. My family didn't disown me. But in hindsight, I almost wish they had. I've tried to keep a good relationship with my family. They are my family and to me that still means a lot. But my relationship with them just isn't working very well.

Whenever I visit or talk with my family I feel like I'm always being looked down upon. In their eyes a good human being does the following things:

1. Is active in the church and fulfills their callings.
2. If they are male, they serve an honorable mission.
3. They get married and make as many babies as humanly possible.

I don't meet any of their criteria.

Whenever I talk with my parents the conversation almost always turns into a lecture about how I can still come back to the church and/or that I can still find I wife and have kids.

My siblings are the same. I was telling my brother about a promotion I got at work. Instead of congratulating me, he told me that I use the extra money I'll be making to start a family and pay my tithing.

I was giving my sister a ride to the airport. I had cup of coffee in my cup holder. She freaked out, and for weeks afterwards would gossip about how evil I was with all the family on Facebook.

I could go on, but the fact of the matter is I'm slowly coming to the realization the I will always be looked down upon by family and seen as deficient. It's not a healthy relationship.

I'm about at wits end here. Should I even bother trying to maintain a relationship with them? At this point, I really don't see how it's even worth it.

Distancing is one thing, abandoning ship is another. Just cut back the time you spend with them.

Ron

I agree. I wouldn't totally bail, but I would cut back. If you haven't already done so, I would set some boundaries with them and let them know how their behavior bothers you Declare some subjects off limits and stick too it.For instnce, tell DS that you will not drink coffee in her house, but you will do as you please in your home and car and if she is going to gossip about you, she can find someone worthy to take to the airport because you will not be available.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2011 06:07PM by bona dea.

I'd advise you to do what I did. Whenever my family brought up mormonism I walked away or hung up the phone. It took a year for the message to sink in but in the end it did. Letters and mail were responded with utter scrutiny and the exchange of them ended very quickly.

Just let them know, in words and actions, where your boundaries are. What you will and will not tolerate. Most people, wether mormon or not, do not, most of the time, cross other people's boundaries on purpose (although such people do exist). They do it because nobody has shown them that a boundary has been crossed in the first place.

You have to set boundaries.

Here are a couple of additional ideas for you to consider. They are a bit wacky, but I deal with outlandish behavior everyday as a part of my job and have had to come up with a rather big bag of tricks to deal with that behavior.

1. Model appropriate behavior: For your brother's reply to your promotion, you could potentially try the following: Sit down alongside him, and look up into the air as if you were addressing yourself. Say, "That's fantastic, Helios! You've worked so hard at your job. I'm so happy that you got your promotion!" Then look at him and say, "Would that really have been too hard for you to say? Because that's kinda what I had in mind for how a loving brother might respond to my news."

2. Exaggerate (make fun of) the behavior: When your sister freaked out about you having coffee, you might have pulled the car over and really put on a show. "OH MY GOODNESS! HE'S DRINKING COFFEE! THE HORROR! Get out of the car and run around it several times, waving your hands and shouting, "HE'S DRINKING COFFEE! HE'S DRINKING COFFEE! AUUUGHH! Etc. Then stop, look at her balefully, and say, "Get a grip on reality. It's NOT that big a deal." lol

3. The old classic -- Reward appropriate behavior: When your family displays appropriate behavior, however momentary, reward it. Give a smile, a hug, some food, or your attention. When they are inappropriate, ignore, walk away, take a bathroom break, etc. In other words, Psychology 101.

Nice! You might even be able to make them laugh.

I had to abandon ship in order to get on with my life. If my very TBM family ends up changing in 15 or 20 years (I'm not holding my breath) I'll get to know them again. In the meanwhile I am around people who support me and want me to succeed. Nothing would make my biological family happier than if I failed in my career and my personal life and subsequently called them to ask if I could be rebaptized. That's not family in my opinion.

You do what you have to do. No one can make the decision for you, but know that it does work better for some people to make a complete break. It has made a huge difference in my happiness level and my ability to forge ahead with my own life.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Let me add that it might be necessary for you to stop seeing them, but I would try other things first. You are the only one who can decide, but I would certainly talk to them about their behavior if you haven't already done so. If they start lecturing you or preaching, change the subject. If that doesn't work, I would leave and let them know why.'Mom, Dad, I told you I do not not want to talk about this and if you can't respect that, I'll just leave' Eventually, they might get it. If the don't, you decide what is best for you.

As someone who has been somewhat "disowned" I would say don't do it. My FIL was having an affair after 20+ years of marriage. He wasn't happy with my MIL and blamed just about everything on her. Granted, I don't like my MIL at all but some things are just petty. Having 6 kids? Partly his fault. Not finishing college with only 8 credits left until graduation? I think he could've gone back. Life gets in the way of plans and instead of taking stock of his life, re-evaluating it and making a plan to make things happen for him, he decided that he was going to "divorce each and every thing that ever came from that wretched woman." Including his children, their spouses, and his only grandson (our son). It hurt a lot and it still does.

I would just try to distance yourself if you think you can. Meet on your own terms as much as possible. Quit doing them any favors especially if they can't just be appreciative of it. I hope it all goes well for you.

Be too busy, have a full schedule, so you are not available to do things for them or participate in family affairs.
Since you are a target, you need to back off, in my view.
You might need the break!
Either that, or tell them to KNOCK OFF THE JUDGMENTAL attitudes.

You are right to say that this is not working and it is not healthy. They are lovers of gossip and talking behind your back as well as comments to your face. Just think of all that is being said that you don't know about. They refuse to accept your decision to leave Mormonism. They will never accept it. It is a classic case of them loving the church more than YOU. Yes, that is horrible but the truth. Find a family....when you marry, you will have a nice one....that honors who you are and doesn't put you down. If at some point one of your family makes contact, treat it well and ease back into some conversation. But for now I would keep my distance from peple who are toxic. You can not function well with all this stress. For now, before marriage, get together with friends and let that be your family. It works well for some.

I have been in your shoes...and went through the very same things with my TBM family. It took YEARS for them to finally stop judging me. It did get better, though and now I have a pretty good relationship with my family that I never thought was possible.

I was angry for a long time and let that all go one day. I realized that it was only hurting myself. My TBM family also freaked out over tiny things like coffee. I remember one time when I had gotten a promotion at work I called my TBM mom to share the good news with her and her reply was "Satan gives blessings too you know"...!!!!!!!!!

I left way before this board or the internet but if I could do it all over again, I think that I would have been more straightforward with my family instead of slowly leaving (I left at 18 but lived in another state and lied about going to church for YEARS!.) I wish that I would have told them that I loved them but had a critical mind and simply couldn’t continue on with Mormonism. No rebellion, just truth with love. There was a poster awhile ago who was around 18 and told his parents just this.

Maybe think this over before you abandon them altogether.

Just leave them to their own devices. Works better.

Don't burn bridges. If they do not want to cross the bridges, hey. That's THEIR problem, not yours.

You need to distance yourself from people who are toxic but only you can decide how much distance. I would agree with SusieQ and just be busy, take your time calling them back, unfriend who you have to etc. Just be busy with new friends who like you for you. Sadly, your family, like certain people in mine, love your performance more than your soul and will only approve of you as far as you are translated correctly. And, I'm going to suugest that you (and I) both need to not worry what they think because we can't change it. So we can't let it get to us because our loved ones are programmed to think that way and can't help themselves. It bugs me enormously that they judge us as unworthy, not realizing that by judging they render themselves unworthy of the Jesus they pretend to worship. It's crazy-making and while I wouldn't necessarily burn all my bridges, there is nothing wrong with being too busy to cross those bridges, IMO.

My situation is similar, only the trouble is with my TBM kids. It does not look like you will ever need to disown them, I think they are doing that FOR you in their own passive aggreesive ways.

At least that is what some of my kids have done over the years since I left the church, and I have one daughter that still will not even speak to me, ever. I finally don't care. I am sick of her, and of always having to walk on eggshells around her to try and please her; I finally decided it cannot be done, and just quit trying.

as someone who divorced his family and years later started a limited relationship with his quasi-jack brother & family:

When I was talking to my shrink about about recently having come out as gay to my family, she was so happy they didn't disown me. Boy, she didn't understand. I wish they had. I knew I'd be hounded to death. And I was until I finally divorced them.

The act is not to be taken lightly, but it's an option.

lulu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> as someone who divorced his family and years later
> started a limited relationship with his quasi-jack
> brother & family:
>
> When I was talking to my shrink about about
> recently having come out as gay to my family, she
> was so happy they didn't disown me. Boy, she
> didn't understand. I wish they had. I knew I'd
> be hounded to death. And I was until I finally
> divorced them.
>
> The act is not to be taken lightly, but it's an
> option.

This is what happens when a professional doesn't understand cult behaviour.

Changing others is not your job, same as it's not their job to change you. For your own sanity, you will either have to stop processing or accepting any criticism they put out towards you. What they do or say or how they act is out of your control. Accept that and cease to hope that they will change. If you don't have the expectation of their acceptance then you won't feel the rejection when they demonstrate that they think you are a failure.

If you can do the above (most of us can't) then you have a chance at maintaining an association with them. You can't change them but you can change how you percieve them and their antics.

I find humor helps me when someone is being an ass to me. I find the senslessness and sillyness of their words or actions and turn them into fun and hilarity that I can laugh at.

I still let an occasional comment or action get to me and I sometimes will call the perpetrator on it but I am finding that when I let it slide, I am able to, within a day or two, change my perspective on it to where it no longer sticks or hurts. Giving my power to others by feeling caring or feeling bad about their words or actions, leaves me feeling vulnerable and being the victim.

If I have already given my power to someone, I sometimes have to back away from them until I feel I have my power back. This has resulted in ceasing my affiliation with them on almost a permanent basis. When I am feeling good, and feel I am back in control and in my power, I may reach out again and test the water and see how strong I have become.

I think it rests with what thoughts you are willing to entertain in your head. I am usually able to maintain my balance but occasionally have a down moment that takes me a day or two to recover from.

Best luck and keep us posted

I agree that you may not be able to change them, but if you want a relationship, it might be worth having a serious talk with them and set some boundaries. Then enforce them. They may or may not get the idea, but if you change the subject, leave or get off the phone everytime they start, they might get it. For me it would be worth a try. Of course, you may have already done this or you may be to the point that you just don't care.It is possible they do not realize how they are coming across to you. If you haven't talked to them, give it a shot.

Although I hear the folks that suggest 'sitting down and having a talk', most TBM LDS do not have the capacity to actually have a genuine conversation regarding this issue. They don't actively listen, they simply wait for their turn to talk. Then they re-hash the usual stuff. I do think it might be worthwhile to write a letter and address it to everyone you want to tell. Be succinct, but make your point in no uncertain terms. Then, if you find yourself in a similar situation in the future, simply reference the letter (which they won't remember) and tell them to read the letter if they have any further questions. Meantime, knock it off!
Dufreyne--

dufreyne Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Although I hear the folks that suggest 'sitting
> down and having a talk', most TBM LDS do not have
> the capacity to actually have a genuine
> conversation regarding this issue. They don't
> actively listen, they simply wait for their turn
> to talk. Then they re-hash the usual stuff. I do
> think it might be worthwhile to write a letter and
> address it to everyone you want to tell. Be
> succinct, but make your point in no uncertain
> terms. Then, if you find yourself in a similar
> situation in the future, simply reference the
> letter (which they won't remember) and tell them
> to read the letter if they have any further
> questions. Meantime, knock it off!
> Dufreyne--

Well, my TBM family got it and stopped nagging me about it after a while. Of course it depends on the people and their personalities. I think it is worth a try and it might take a few reminders or even walking out to get across that you mean it. If it doesn't work after giving it a reasonable time, then I would see a lot less of them. writng a letter is good too. At least you don't have to deal with anger and tears.Short and concise is good because any people won't bother to read a long list. Something like this might work

Dear Family; The church is causing a lot of contention between us right now. I am not attending and that is not going to change. I respect your right to believe and would appreciate it if you would repsect my right to not believe. Therefore I propose the following.

1. I will not engage in any conversations about the church. I will remind you once and if the conversation continues, I will leave. I will not particpate in any religious rituals so please do not nag me to go with you.Again, if nagging continues, I will leave.I will not try to change your mind or mock things that you consider important and I expect the same.

2. I will not use tobacco, tea, coffee or alcohol in your home, but I expect you to respect my right to use them elsewhere.I am not an evil person for using them, nor am I a drunk or an addict.I am an adult and have the right to make my own choices.

3. I do not appreciate comments about me on Facebook and I do not appreciate gossip behind my back.I will refrain from this and I expect you to do the same.

I think these few rules will help make our time together more pleasant and hope you agree. blah blah blah.Add whatever you like and let them know you are serious. You might have to follow through and leave a few times.

Maybe you should let them know that.

They can nag, gossip, etc, but I'm pretty sure it won't change your mind about the CHURCH. However, it may change your mind about wanting to be around THEM.

If they have no power, they have NO responsibility for your choices, either.

In other words, they might as well chill out about it, because they are accomplishing NOTHING, except alienating you.


I think everytime they bring it up, just tell them to give it a rest, or straight out refute what they say. Coffee? FABULOUS drink. So sad they can't enjoy it with you. Coffee is proof that God loves us . . . . Drinking coffee is a spiritual experience. . . . they don't know WHAT they are missing out on . . . . you're probably going to live 10 years longer than them because you drink it . . . .

you get the idea.

Don't let them get to you.

Make it more annoying to THEM than to you if they bring up church stuff.

Some of my family members were kinder than others. I ended up having to cut off one family member altogether, but he had been abusive to me since childhood, and never stopped. When I left Mormonism, I learned to set boundaries. Also I learned that beating and torturing your little sister was unacceptable in normal families. Talking dirty sex-talk to me and to my girls is also unacceptable. Since this relative has continued to do this every chance he got, we have to stay away from him and away from every family event he attends.

In my own home, it is easy for me to set boundaries, because my parents had the same rules: "No talking about politics and religion at the dinner table." I extend those rules to "in my house" and also "at the office." This works like a charm, when you are in charge.

At other family get-togethers, I say, "This is a party! Let's not talk about religion or politics." Then I change the subject.

Read a book on "assertiveness training." Figure out exactly what your boundaries are. Later, you can ease up or clamp down, depending on how it goes. Learn dialogs ahead of time, to prepare you with what you want to say to your family members.

You can ease your way out by telling them a little bit at a time. I began with telling them at temple weddings, "I let my temple recommend lapse." No explanation. I said it was anti-family to keep loved ones from attending a wedding ceremony. Then, "I don't believe God needs us to do work for His dead people." Gradually, I got out of attending the temple, yet attended meetings and fulfilled my callings.

You could tell them that you read somewhere that coffee really is good for you. Tell them that the WOW is not a commandment, but only a "suggestion." Your sister is probably breaking the WOW by eating too much meat, being overweight, drinking Pepsi, or whatever.

Never debate with a mormon. Period.

Now I've left, I still don't explain--mainly because no one has asked, and they don't want to hear anything against their precious cult. Instead, I mention what I DO believe: I believe that God loves us unconditionally. I believe that women are just as valuable as men. I believe that gay people should be able to get married. I believe that God and Christ would disapprove of polygamy, both on earth and in heaven. I want to follow Christ.

There's nothing wrong with telling them the truth, gently, with a positive spin on it. But, go ahead and tell them that you don't believe some things about the church. (But don't say it is a hoax cult.) This can be done without lambasting their beliefs.

Finally, you need to get a thick skin and a sense of humor. This is hard to do if you are a sensitive person. RFM is a great help in reassuring you that you are not alone. You are the normal one in your family, even though you feel outnumbered sometimes. Mormons make up less than 2% of the population, you know. In the outside world, they are considered very weird.

Rent "The Other Guys," and watch Michael Keaton's hilarious rant about Bed Bath & Beyond. He puts Mormonism into perspective.

(((hugs))) You are very courageous!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2011 03:07AM by forestpal.

is that you get to choose your friends.

I quit Mormonism in 1959 when I was 17 years old. I quickly found a circle of nevermo friends, and within three months my thinking and outlook became like that of my new friends.

My TBM family and I simply broke off contact. There was no big blowup or fight. We didn't phone or visit or have any contact to speak of. They didn't think that I was worth any bother or effort and I felt the same way about them.

The good part of this situation was that I was never criticized for having quit the cult, and nobody ever tried to lay a guilt trip on me or re-convert me. That allowed me to go forward in life as a nevermo, and that worked very well.

Family isn't all that it is cracked up to be. If your family members are as toxic and mean spirited and unfriendly as your family seems to be, then what do you lose by not having contact with them? In my situation I felt like it was a positive thing for me to not have contact with my TBM family.

It helps to prepare responses in advance, refuse to answer personal questions and answer inappropriate questions with your own questions. And keep sweet!

They are beta-ing you and you are allowing it. When they tell you what to do with your money, i.e., pay tithing or whatever, you reply, "I appreciate your interest in my investments. Have you looked into gold lately? Why if you took your money out of wherever you have your investments right now, you would be much better off, don't you agree?

If you punctuate that with a rueful smile, they should get the idea that their implied mandate to tell you what's best for you is inappropriate.

I have role-played with family members who were made to feel less-than and they said it was fun and totally prepared them for the worst case comments.

The ultimate question, should you freeze, is always "Why would you ask a question like that? No, really, why would you think that's appropriate?

I like the humor approach best, but in the line of fire, go with what you can. And always remember, today's TBM is tomorrows exmormon. Never give up because Satan is watching us and we wouldn't want to disappoint him, now would we?


Anagrammy

I have struggled with the exact same question.

What I have found is that 99.99% of women use the ridiculous litmus test for a worthy husband is a guy who "loves his mother." So if you do want to date, pair off, and have a family someday, if you "disown" your family, this will become impossible.

I suppose the best scenario here would be to "fake" getting along with them the best that you can. Like, Oscar-worthy. I dunno, it can be done. Maybe.

Furthermore, family relations come into play in your professional life too. Sometimes your ability to make political and professional connections are enhanced by what others can "see" you doing in your personal life.

I guess if you know you don't really wanna find that special someone, or be an ambitious ladder-climber, then my warnings are bulls... but just something to think about. It depends on what your ultimate goals are. And perhaps the chasm is just too large, an Oscar-worthy performance could never span it anyway. Hell if I know the answer. ????

Speaking as a woman, I think that "does he love his Mom" is an overrated question.

I've discovered that if they are too close to their Moms, they sometimes turn out to be Mamma's boys who will turn to their Moms over you, even when married or in a relationship.... and expect you to be exactly like her. That's awful!

Its no easy task being the only non-TBM of my parents/siblings. From time to time I sent out group emails to my siblings whenever any of them made a big slipup in the boundaries I imposed on them 10 years ago. I'll say something like this.

In the 1840s Joseph Smith wrote a letter to a newspaper editor in Chicago named Wentworth where he said: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to
the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same
privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." I think that's great advice from Joseph Smith and I hope we can all respect everyone's consciences on this. Now if you don't agree with Joseph Smith on this and feel that the dictates of my conscience ought to not be allowed then I'd be happy to have a thorough discussion on all this with you all. Otherwise I expect that we'll all live in peace together as a big happy family :)

My mom is the most difficult one of all. She gets her hopes up from time to time. I'm guessing that many of the church meetings and lessons are still designed to guilt the parents into getting their children back in the fold. Thus from time to time I get approached with some thought, conversation, or some other approach to get me thinking about returning to Mormondom. The method that works best to counteract this is when I tell her that there are every person out there has different strengths, weaknesses, gifts and lack of gifts. I tell her that for my siblings they have the gift of testimony and great knowledge where they know the church is true. For me I just don't have that gift and great knowledge. And I've surely already overdone my welcome in harassing God to give me such a gift. So if you have anything else to say on this mother dear then please be sure to haunt me from the Spirit World.

Sure its annoying. But I'd rather deal with these occasional annoyances than lose my family altogether. And from time to time I'll remind them all that the first step to having a great eternal family is probably to have it be peaceful/tranquil in mortality first :)

If they ever give me flak on the "Word of Wisdom" I just say "what am I drinking bad that Joseph Smith ever drank".

The subject quickly changes at their request because they know I've done lots of research/study and they know that their testimony/salvation is at risk if they let themselves dwell on unimportant truths that I might share with them that caused me to lose my testimony (and of course salvation) ;)

I've found that me knowing plenty about the real history of the church is very handy whenever impromptu issues come up. I think a "good" TBM would feel more comfortable reading Playboy than they would having a discussion on LDS church history with someone like me if they know my history.

It still amazes me how none of my siblings has ever given any serious inquiry into the real reasons why I don't believe anymore. Oh well .... at least I don't worry about it anymore :) I've accepted that we're all going to have a big quiet sorryfest in our family dynamics for the rest of our lives. They'll feel sorry for me because I won't get to go to their Celestial Kingdom. I'll feel sorry for them because they're wasting their time/energies on a cult that simply isn't what it claims to be.

alex71ut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If they ever give me flak on the "Word of Wisdom"
> I just say "what am I drinking bad that Joseph
> Smith ever drank".
>
> The subject quickly changes at their request
> because they know I've done lots of research/study
> and they know that their testimony/salvation is at
> risk if they let themselves dwell on unimportant
> truths that I might share with them that caused me
> to lose my testimony (and of course salvation) ;)
>
>
> I've found that me knowing plenty about the real
> history of the church is very handy whenever
> impromptu issues come up. I think a "good" TBM
> would feel more comfortable reading Playboy than
> they would having a discussion on LDS church
> history with someone like me if they know my
> history.
>
> It still amazes me how none of my siblings has
> ever given any serious inquiry into the real
> reasons why I don't believe anymore. Oh well ....
> at least I don't worry about it anymore :) I've
> accepted that we're all going to have a big quiet
> sorryfest in our family dynamics for the rest of
> our lives. They'll feel sorry for me because I
> won't get to go to their Celestial Kingdom. I'll
> feel sorry for them because they're wasting their
> time/energies on a cult that simply isn't what it
> claims to be.

That works well. Just give them some real church history when they start pressuring you. Works like a charm

Love it Alex! I, too, am the lone exmo in my extended TBM family. Wish I had thought of responding this way.

Wish I could meet up with more people in my shoes... and start adopting new families!

LOL!

I have an older sister who I had to cut completely off. She was spreading lies among the family and pitting us against each other. She was, incidentally, the religious nut in the family, the one everyone asked for advice, etc. She kept was all from really talking to each other by spreading lies and making us mad at one another.

We finally got together and figured it all out. This had been going on for years. No one in the family will now talk to her and she now has a group of church buddies who she uses to do the same thing to as she did us.

The whole family is now way happier and better off without her. Ironically, she's obsessed with hell and reads books about it all the time. LOL

One should never lose their family- especially over something like a religion. One thing that might be worth doing is to simply cease all contact for a while- like, do you see them weekly? Try skipping for a month or two and let the answering machine take your calls.

Then, when you do eventually get around to visiting or answering the phone (thank Jupiter for caller ID!!) they will probably ask why they haven't seen or heard from you.

Well family member, all you ever do is harrass me about church, and well, it's just not worth it to call or visit anymore.

Do not call or visit anyone afterward. Make them come to you.
Set boundaries and do take the high road toward reconciliation.
Be the good guy. Set a good example. And if they start acting like adults, then you can resume initiating contact.

I find the reality of this problem to be a little more complex than simply "setting boundaries" etc.

For example, what do you do if the TBM family don't harrass you about leaving Mormonism, but all they do night and day is discuss it, and at family get togethers, do nothing but be ultra-Mormons, to the point that it becomes nauseating?

This is my current challenge, and why I'd rather not hang with them. I'm tired of making up excuses why I can't get together with them. It's hard to confront them as to why but I really feel ill when the topic of conversation is the latest church meeting, missionary, activity, calling or conference. Ick!

Anyone have a solution? I am afraid if I say why, they will tell me that they can't help it, it's their life... but the rest will deny that they are talking about church all the time. To which I would say--Do you talk like that around your co-workers? If not, why not? That's how I'd like you to be around me--after all, I'm an exmo now.

The other big problem is I have 2 kids who are minors, and I know that they want to try to get my kids interested in Mormonism behind my back. I've talked to them about it directly. They're quite sly. They don't do it in front of me but would definitely go for it if given the chance without me present. So that's the other issue.

Anyone else struggling with these two realities?

Dude I am in the same boat as you! I just wrote at thread how my mom freaked about rum balls. I really can't stand it anymore and it is kind of funny because they look down on us but really they are the ones stuck in a cult!

I think I may start to distance myself more from them as well.

Just letting you know I know how you feel.