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Posted by: exdrymo ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 08:21PM

I've read PGP JSH 1:7-20, which is the usual source given for this version, however, this account doesn't actually mention God the father and Jesus christ, only "two Personages", then "One of them...said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"

I'm trying to find a reference for how/when the identities were assigned to the "personages", and who did it.

Mormon infographics gives a checkmark for "god the father" and "Jesus Christ" in their summary of this version:
www.mormoninfographics.com/2012/09/joseph-smiths-first-vision-and-his.html

Does this graphic give JS too much credit? Or is there another account somewhere that supplements this one?

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Posted by: exdrymo ( )
Date: January 26, 2013 08:00PM

Thanks so much Snowowl!

I really liked the timeline-style format of

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/firstvision.htm

After sifting through all of them, the earliest quote I found that explicitly identified the "personages" was John Taylor:

>>On December 7, 1879 Taylor declared: "the Lord revealed
himself to him together with his Son Jesus, and, pointing
to the latter, said; 'This is my beloved Son, hear him.'"
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 21, p. 161).<<<

None of the other quotes was from JS however.

It seems strange that even in recent times "the lords annointed" are still dancing around the issue.

>>>>In the Tanners' files is a letter from Joseph Fielding
Smith to a certain Sister Christine Sweet dating to August
29, 1961,..."Should there be any question in your mind as to the identity of the two personages who visited the Prophet, I hope you will take the opportunity of visiting my office so that the matter can be further explained."<<<<<

WTF? is their identity secret or something?

Like the Book of Abraham, you have two avenues: You can discredit the first vision by comparing the sources, or you can discredit it on the internal weaknesses alone.

The fact that the personages don't identify themselves is a big hole in the story. Especially when it's supposed to be part of the judeo-christian drama where supernatural personages, good and evil supposedly abound.

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Posted by: Leaving ( )
Date: January 25, 2013 01:46AM

Joseph Smith plagiarized even the 1838 first vision account.

JSM Verse 19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

Note the similarities to the following scriptures.

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

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Posted by: exdrymo ( )
Date: January 26, 2013 08:06PM

So right.

I recently saw "Lincoln" and was reminded how thoroghly the King James Bible was ingrained into everyone's language and thought in the 19 century.

Lincoln wasn't particularly religious, but knew the power that kind of language had over Americans back then.

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Posted by: arend ( )
Date: January 31, 2013 10:33AM

That's interesting.

I enjoyed Jim Whitefield's analysis of the historicity of the First Vision
http://richkelsey.org/jim_whitefield.htm

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: January 26, 2013 09:33PM

It seems pretty clear from the context of the official version that it is God the Father & Jesus - I don't think there is a need for it to be spelled out explicitly that is what Joseph
Smith meant.

It's a clear reference - for example:

Matthew 3:17

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mark 1:11

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 12:18

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
2 Peter 1:17

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

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Posted by: exdrymo ( )
Date: January 31, 2013 01:15AM

But in those passages Jesus was a known guy from the neighborhood walking around in a regular body.

at least Saul asks for ID when he has his first vision:
Acts 9:3
And as he journeyed, it came to pass that he drew nigh unto Damascus: and suddenly there shone round about him a light out of heaven: and he fell upon the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:

I'm not being dense in this--yes the implication is that it was God the father and JC obviously. I get that. Personally I think Smith's vision simply didn't happen and I tend to discredit it on the severe historical issues.

However, similar to the recent thread about Lucifer answering Adam's prayer in the endowment, I like to ask missionaries how do we know the personages weren't Stan and Stan Jr? How did JS know they had bodies if he didn't touch them? Their whole religion could be based on a mistaken identity, like a British drawing room farce or bad TV sitcom.

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Posted by: nlocnil ( )
Date: January 31, 2013 11:06AM

Here's a pretty good pamphlet that breaks down the revisions:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/121989551/Evolution-of-the-First-Vision-Story

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