It's a matter of historical record that Joseph Smith's Mormon Church co-inventer, Oliver Cowdery, couldn't get his magic dowsing stick to function when it came to the Book of Mormon's translation junction.

Yet, despite this fundamental failure on Ollie's part, he supposedly was able to locate caves in the Hill Cumorah piled high with ancient plates.

Grant Palmer, in his book "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins” [Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books, 2002], describes the “discoveries” thus:

“The ability to see into hidden crevices within the local hills was not limited to Joseph Jr. and his father. Heber C. Kimball spoke of 'the vision that Joseph and others had [Joseph Sr. and Oliver Cowdery are identified] when they went into a cave in the Hill Cumorah and saw more records than 10 men could carry . . . books piled upon tables, book upon book.'

"[Brigham] Young named more witnesses in connection with these visits to Cumorah's cave . . . : 'Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon-loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates . . . . I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it . . . . Carlos Smith . . . was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw these things, Hyrum saw a good many things but Joseph was the leader.' . . .

"In 1873 Brigham Young informed Elizabeth Kane and others that the plates that Cowdery saw 'were in a cave; that Oliver Cowdery . . . would not deny that he had seen [and handled] them. He had been to the cave.'” Palmer adds that “Hyrum Smith related more about [Cowdery's Cumorah spelunking) to William W. Phelps, identifying still others who made the excursion to the hill's interior. Phelps recounted: 'Joseph, Hyrum, Cowdery and Whitmer[s?] went to the Hill Cumorah. As they were walking up the hill, a door opened and they walked into a room about 16-feet square. In that room was an angel and a trunk. On the trunk lay a Book of Mormon and gold plates, Laban's sword, Aaron's breastplate.'” In this regard, Palmer adds that in another statement, Young mentioned that they saw “ 'a Messenger' who was the 'keeper of the room' and that they conversed with him.”

Palmer raises doubts that Cowdery physically located such gold-crusted caverns, noting that Brigham Young's version of “recounted statements by Cowdery [of walking into a treasure-laden cave inside the Hill Cumorah] . . . may have been misremembered [as] . . . real events rather than visionary”--serving to further underscore that Cowdery was “seeing” things with his magic stick. Palmer notes, “It appears that this cave was not a physical reality but rather something that was visited in a dream-vision” by Cowdery and others."

Ya think?

Jerald and Sandra Tanner, in their book, "The Changing World of Mormonism" (Chicago, Illinois: The Moody Bible Institute/Moody Press, 1980-81), quote LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie in his "Mormon Doctrine":

"It is reported by President Brigham Young that there was in the Hill Cumorah a room containing many wagon loads of plates {p. 454)."

Mormonism certainly carries wagon loads of something, but it ain't gold plates.

As the Tanners observe:

"An ordinary person would probably see nothing of importance about this hill but to Mormons this is one of the most important places on Earth."

Indeed, making a mountain out of a bull hill.
_____


No gold in Joe's Kirtland "bank" vault.

No gold in Joe's Hill-Cumorah under-the-stone-box vault.

Psssst, Joe: Cut your losses and build a mall.



Edited 13 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2013 12:11AM by steve benson.

Another bit of Mo history that you don't hear about in Sunday School.

Wait, by my "reckoning" that's at least six witnesses to the cave/loads of records.

That more than the three witnesses, and if Ollie swore till his death it happened, then why isn't this a part of the official witnesses testimoaning? Mormon's should be declaring such truths from the rooftops, if the same witnesses, swearing till death, saw such things...

Smith had a fascination with gold. He seemed to like gold at least as much as he did teenage girls and married women. From his White Horse prophecy:

"At this point the Prophet's countenance became sad; he said, 'I love the constitution. It was made by the inspiration of God. And it will be preserved and saved by the efforts of the White Horse and the Red Horse. Who will combine in its defense. The White Horse will raise an ensign on the tops of the mountains of peace and safety. The White Horse will find the mountains full of minerals and they will become very rich. You will see silver piled up in the streets "You will see gold shoveled up like sand. Gold will be of little value even in a mercantile capacity, for the people of the world will have something else to do in seeking for salvation "The time will come when the banks in every nation will fail and only two places will be safe where people can deposit their gold and treasures. These places will be the White Horse and England's vaults....

...The Temple in Jackson County will be built in this generation. The saints will think there will not be time to build it. but with all the help you will receive you can put up a great temple quickly. They will have all the gold, silver, and precious stones; for these things only will be used for the beautifying of the temple; all the skilled mechanics you want, and the Ten Tribes of Israel will help you build it. When you see this land bound with iron you may look toward Jackson County'"

I wonder how apologists interpret 'this generation'. I'm sure they try to say it means the generation that the temple will be built in....nice save on a failed prophecy. I also wonder if and when the church actually builds this temple if they are going to be willing to go through the expense to only use gold, silver and precious stones to adorn it. Somehow, I doubt it.

the goods were 'magically' transported to the (property tax exempt) caves in Utah where genelogical records are stored (or, to the FP Vault, ha ha).

Joseph Smith Claiming to be able to find gold for money, Joseph Smith claiming to have gold plates, Joseph Smith claiming to have gold in the Kirtland bank, after all of that, I find myself a little distrusting when Glenn Beck, the Mormon on the radio wants me to buy gold at inflated prices. Never trust a Mormon who promises wealth in gold.

+10

I believe there must be wagonloads of gold in and around Cumorah. I'm selling shares, $1,000 minimum investment, to start an assay of the Hill Cumorah and surrounding lands. Since there's no time to print a prospectus, just send me the money so I (I mean, "WE") can get going right away.

Getting serious, JS's scam has a logic suggestive of the great comedy, "The Producers:" to get people to invest in an enterprise than cannot possibly succeed. Ironically, both unexpectedly succeeded. Max (Zero Mostel in the movie) and Leo (Gene Wilder) found that the preposterous plot was popularly received, only not as they intended. Smith and company probably expected to make a fast killing and move on, only to find that their fiction was unexpectedly believed.

I want to know how many shrooms they shroomed

Exactly!

You can bet that JS, BY and their minions would have been the first to melt it all down, cash out, and spend it on booze and (very young) women.

You are reminded what a lot of backwoods huckleberries these douchebags were. These are people that if you met them on the street you would want absolutely nothing to do with - not in any serious manner, anyway.

All this hysteria about hills was started by those mounds built by ancient Native American mound-builders, whose artificial hills were being thoroughly plundered. It's too bad that the "Hill Cumorah" is proven to be just a dirt pile left by a glacier. It's a drumlin.

I mean, c'mon, I can buy Moroni hauling the gold plates from Cumorah South to Cumorah North, but wagonload after wagonload?

If his best means of transporting was tapirs dragging sleds (as Michael Ash would have us believe), then that much gold being transported from Central or South America to New York is just unreasonable.