First of all, I am so glad the BSA is growing up and entering the real world of tolerance and acceptance.


As for LDSinc, the ground below the mormon church is shrinking. How will they respond? Were they, the single biggest group supporting the BSA, a part of the discussions today?

"The all-in support of the Mormons has, in turn, been a boon for the scouts as they have struggled against a 20 percent decline in membership over the last dozen years ...In 2011, Mormon-sponsored packs and troops accounted for more than one-third of the country’s scout units, and the 421,000 boys they enrolled, from ages 8 to 18, made up 15 percent of the country’s 2.7 million registered scouts. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/us/mormons-and-scouts-act-as-partners-in-molding-boys.html?pagewanted=all

Rumor has it, from a friend of a church member that is in the know, that the LDS church will create their own version of scouts. In fact, the word is they very likely already have one ready to go. Years ago when there were the first rumblings of this, church leaders heavily involved in scouting helped design a church version of scouting which was tentatively titled 'Army of Helaman'. Leaders in the know would not say anything else, as it was supposedly very hush-hush.

I think you're spot on. They will just make up their own version of the scouts to avoid having to change their views. What was their stupid plight last Summer? Something about warriors? lol nevermind I just double read your post. Armies of helaman it is! I really do believe that this is what TSCC will resort to, to save face.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 07:57AM by Tupperwhere.

They do, I don't have any resources on it, but they did develop a program to take the place of scouts if need ever arises. I think a few years back when the BSA was getting a lot of media attention on Homosexuals not being allowed in scouting. They were going to court or something?? I think the judge ruled that because they are a private Org, not a public one, they can exclude whoever they want.

freckles Wrote:
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> ...they did develop a program to take the place of scouts if need ever arises.

Both programs would improve if TSCC got thier noses out of BSA.

Yes. The LDS is the biggest sponsor of BSA troops. They threatened to pull out and sponsor their own program if the gay ban was dropped. It's been widely reported that they were developing their own program.

The BSA will not make a change without big input from the LDS. So obviously this policy of non-forced inclusion is a compromise. It's good for BSA but it will still allow the LDS to discriminate. And there's no question that they will.

The article I read says that BSA will leave that up to the individual sponsoring organizations. So BSA wouldn’t force the church to allow gay scouts and leaders if it went against the church’s position. The church could go about business as usual.

Sure the national BSA policy is a bit cowardly. “We’re not the ones discriminating anymore. It’s the local sponsoring organizations.” But at least now an openly gay boy can earn his eagle in a tolerant troop and not be denied the award by national.

I get a chuckle thinking about a good little LDS boy showing up for his Eagle board and having a couple LGBT leaders from other troops sitting on his eagle board.

that would be awesome

I think TSCC won't jump ship unless the acceptance of gays is mandatory and not voluntary. Indeed, in many areas TSCC will use the voluntary part to solicit scouts from non-member families who don't approve of gay membership. Instead of ditching scouts, TSCC will use their refusal to have gays in TSCC troops as a way to increase membership.

As for being the Army of Helaman, forget it. TSCC would know that an eagle or other badge would then only denote the mormon membership. TSCC needs the cachet and facilities of the scouts and is not about to increase its camps and campsites.

I think a jump ship to 'army of helaman' is just the kind of mistake they would make.

my senario
scouts accepts gays, social pressure increases for the church to accept them. church drops scouts.

now the backlash of that is far worse than prop 8 huge scramble to avoid the neg publicity about it. death spiral turns some more.


The GLB movement is hammering on the church, fiscally, socially, and even internally. I am sure someone somewhere in the top 15 is seriously considering a new revelation...

I think this SLTrib headline says it all.

"Boy Scouts May Mirror Mormon Policy and Let in Gays"

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55718242-78/church-scouts-units-lds.html.csp

Mormons will allow same sex attracted scouts and scout leaders as long as there is no sex outside of legal female/male marriage.

That aligns with the Mormon Church's current stated standard.

As I understand it, the current BSA standard is that no homosexual in any sense of the word is allowed to be a scout or a scout leader. That's broader than the current church policy of who is in good church standing.

It would not surprise me if the Church was behind the BSA change and has already signed off on it.

I'll leave for another post how twisted the headline is.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 09:35AM by lulu.

I dunno...I've been thinking about this. Don't you think that with TSCC's "softening" opinion of gays (mormonsandgays.org) that they'll simply take the option of NOT including gays on their boards and leaderships? If the BSA leaves it up to the chapters, the church, with its faked tolerance, can't very well just drop out without looking like they're "just sayin'" they actually accept gays.

I also don't think the BSA would take this stance if they hadn't already done some serious meeting with the church leadership and formed this collective opinion. Last I heard, the church was the biggest supporter, financially and membership-wise, of the BSA. I think that's why the BSA rejected gays a few years ago, when this came up (in the middle of the Prop 8 scandal) and why now, with the church having to change its position on the LGTB community, it is a little more at liberty to be "forward-thinking."

They're in it together. The BSA wouldn't approve if the church didn't give them permission to.

I don't quite get why they would want to back out of scouts because of a BSA policy change. It's not like the church itself will be asking gay people any time soon to fill those spots. LDS scouting has always been fairly sheltered from non-lds scout troops, even where I'm from in a very non-mormon area. Scout troops tend to join in activities with other scout troops from a neighboring ward or within the stake. We always had very minimal exposure to non-lds groups.

Maybe if the church is backing out of scouts because nationally they're allowing gay people to lead and participate, then the church should also back out of marriage, because gay people are getting involved with that too. I mean, why participate in something that has been so "morally violated" such as the sanctity of marriage.

Hearing all of those scouts that mailed their scout awards back and told them to shove it, makes me have hope for humanity. People are growing up, even kids. Makes me wish I had the balls to do something like that when I was in scouts.

The church used to have its own version of the scouts, and they have publicly talked about returning to said program if the need arises.

However, I hope they really do decide to call it the Army of Heleman. That would be precious.

Also precious would be the decades of hammering into the members how important Eagle Scout is, because of the recognition it gets the boy from the rest of the world, and suddenly they will be abandoning that achievement.

I don't see this happening.

The church is nothing if it isn't passive aggressive. They will say they permit gay boys and gay leaders (without sexual partners) in their troops "because they love them."

Then they will wait for the BSA to act, so that the headlines will go like this:

BSA rejects Mormon gay boy scouts for eagle....

instead of

Mormon Church withdraws support from BSA over gays


Anagrammy

anagrammy Wrote:
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> I don't see this happening.
>
> The church is nothing if it isn't passive
> aggressive. They will say they permit gay boys
> and gay leaders (without sexual partners) in their
> troops "because they love them."
>
> Then they will wait for the BSA to act, so that
> the headlines will go like this:
>
> BSA rejects Mormon gay boy scouts for eagle....
>
> instead of
>
> Mormon Church withdraws support from BSA over
> gays
>
>
> Anagrammy

The current church policy is out of compliance the current BSA standard. The current BSA standard would not allow the Weed to be a scout leader while the church standard would. http://www.joshweed.com/ The current church policy would allow him to serve except for the BSA policy.

Under the current church standard if a 15 year old boy walks into his bishops office and says "I'm gay and not sexually active" the bishop says "no problem, you can participate fully in the church, except scouts, because the BSA excludes you.

Under the new BSA standard the bishop would say, "no problem, you can participate fully in the church."



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 11:06AM by lulu.

What I can't understand is why would any GLB person would want anything to do with the LDS church or BSA for that matter.

I know this is bad example, but it would be like the Jewish boys wanting to be include with the Nazi boy scouts. Water and oil, you can shake them together but walk away and they will separate.

The church treats them like worthless crap. they say "because of social pressure, we are being forced to include you, but you can't hold a calling or go to the temple or god forbit have gay sex, We love you but you are not worthy like us."

Can you imagine the Romney style pinning and cutting hair that would occur late at night at a campout?

I am not gay but want nothing to do with BSA just because the church is a big supporter. Find a new hobbie, or just go camping with your family.

I know this is not going to be a popular viewpoint: I wish the LDS church would continue to toss out those it won't accept, like gays, intellectuals and feminists.

On FB, John Dehlin posted on my links to the articles about the BSA changes/LDS involvement, and he was happy that the BSA is changing the policy. I am too, but I also know that John would like to reform the church to include gays. I don't like that now.

Personally, the more I view LDS inc as just another corporation, the more I hope gays, intellectuals and feminists flee it and leave it empty of value. It's a corporation that doesn't provide an actual product that benefits humanity. It uses fear and guile to suck money and time from members while offering them a reprieve from the horror that it created in the first place. It's like organized crime--it sells protection services from problems it creates in the mind (and lives) of its members.

Encouraging reform of such an organization doesn't change its core problem and foundation that was set up and continues at heart for primarily exploiting people using fear and guilt.

Let's say they alter their policy on gays (just as they did with blacks). Did the 1978 policy shift mean they weren't exploiting blacks anymore? Hardly. It meant they included them deeper in the exploitation of temple worthiness with full tithing. The benefits that blacks didn't have by going to the temple weren't an actual blessing. The temple blessings are just a trick to get time and money.

Likewise, helping LDSinc to accept diversity doesn't serve a purpose except to help them keep the tent fuller for exploiting more people on their guilt and fear foundation.

I hope the church continues to marginalize itself from people of value. I hope it loses its breath and deflates.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 11:04AM by Jesus Smith.

A Peggy fletcher Stack article from the Salt Lake Tribune.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55718242-78/church-scouts-units-lds.html.csp

My own view:

The LDS is already hurting from bad PR regarding gays, to leap out of the BS and create something new would be all over the news, more bad PR? Though I think this a real possibility, it would show the new stance on homosexuality as BS.

Since the rumoured new policy, and it is still a rumour, would allow local troops to deny gays, LDS troops could simply deny gays. Again, the same problems as above.

Or the LDS troops could adopt the same policy as the LDS now has towards gays, it is OK to have same sex attractions, just not to act on them. Then the LDS troops would be the same thing they always have been, LDS indoctrination camps. Judging from the past, there would be all sorts of people that would think this a wonderful step forward. I would not be one of them.

I think all three options the LDS could take suck.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A Peggy fletcher Stack article from the Salt Lake
> Tribune.
>
> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55718242-78/chur
> ch-scouts-units-lds.html.csp

MJ, did you see this bit:

"Kay Godfrey, spokesman for the Scouts’ Great Salt Lake Council, said he was unaware of the proposal until reading it in the news..."

In other words, the G-SLC BSA spokesman was not privy to any inclusion of the region's leaders in discussions about the policy shift.

Does this mean the BSA is acting entirely separately from LDSinc?


> Or the LDS troops could adopt the same policy as
> the LDS now has towards gays, it is OK to have
> same sex attractions, just not to act on them.

I bet this is what happens. And when gay marriage is finally passed on a national level, the LDS church will still look outdated when it refuses to allow gay-married leaders.

The spokesman is not the person that would be talking with the national body, so it is possible that the spokesperson just isn't currently in the loop.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 11:37AM by MJ.

spokespeople react.

they are never in the decision making process.

btw, MJ, you sound about as happy about this as I am.

The BSA would still acknowledge and allow discrimination against gays. Thus, they would still be teaching there is something wrong with gays.

will only look more and more backwards.

I'm just happy that the coastal units will finally be free of this stigma and I won't have to personally raise money to send my scouts to summer camp. Council will be able to do their job and raise summer camp money on their own.

FYI, Eagle Scout Bloomberg told the local NYC council there's a check for $10M in the mail the day BSA drops the ban.

I have no problem with a schism taking place. Good riddance. Don't let the 21st Century hit you on the way out.

OK, they look more out of step, they are still discriminating and teaching hate. The "coastal units" will still be condoning the teaching of discrimination and hate by being part of a group that teaches discrimination and hate.

Sorry, not buying the "appearances" BS.

It was during the last "gay" scare for the Boy Scouts. Instead of Scout Camp the Church piloted "Camp Helaman" in the region my mother lived in.

My brother went and said he liked it.

My husband has refused to do any volunteer work with Boy Scouts over this issue and he always carefully explains why he won't work with them.

It will remain to be seen if he is willing to work with them after this. He is asked all the time because of his hobby.

The Army of Helaman / Camp Helaman alternative sounds like a good idea to me. Scouting always did seem like it was grafted on to Mormonism, and non-LDS troops don't seem happy with the LDS intrusion into BSA anyway. I just wonder if they can pull if off. Any time I've seen a Mormon achievement program, it's always seemed really contrived and namby pamby to me. Like the round buttons on the plastic Blazer scroll for learning Articles of Faith. I hope they have thought it through better than that.

to call it an instrusion is an understatement.

how about, when they barge into inner city troops in New York City and tell them how to run their troops, at the expense of eliminating outside funding, Non-LDS troops are none too happy.

Scouting numbers have dropped by 95% in NYC over the past decade. It is one twentieth of what it was in 2000.

They make really shitty scouts anyway.

I've refrained from throwing away my Eagle badge in the hopes that one day BSA would become tolerant. Accepting homosexuals is a good first step. Accepting atheists is the next, followed by removing the words "God" and "Straight" from the boy scout motto.

Since a scout leader in a Mormon BSA troop is a "calling" and not a volunteer posistion, I don't see anything changing in the Mormon scouting program. Gays simply won't be called as leaders.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 01:51PM by MJ.

If you're going to work scouting in a Ward it will be because the Bishopric decided you'll be called to do it. They'll lay their hands on your head and set you apart, etc...even if you're a non-member they'll still do that.

Scouting doesn't require that, but the church does.

On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty to god and to country,
To live the Army of Helaman's law
To help other people at all times....

Hmmmm, it just doesn't flow.

After all, they were the ultimate momma's boys.