I believe that if Satan were real and smart as we've been led to understand, he would have worked out by now that simply doing nothing would be the one thing that would frustrate the plan of salvation. As he hasn't worked this out, I can't believe he exists and therefore everything else soon collapses.
Has anyone raised this point with a TBM and been given a good, logical answer?

Ha! Wow... I'm going to need a few days to really get through that situation in my head. That is sort of brilliant...

I wish you said good so I could say "Not good, brilliant!"

Hehe. HP quote(Yes, I'm a nerd).

The only answer I have ever gotten from TSCC is simply that Satan is just in bondage to his hatred, and can't help himself from acting out...

That's what I've heard. Doesn't really align well to the BoM description of his cunningness though. We have nothing to fear - he's not even as smart as Emperor Palpatine, General Zog or Hannibal Lector.

sherlock Wrote:
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> That's what I've heard. Doesn't really align well
> to the BoM description of his cunningness though.
> We have nothing to fear - he's not even as smart
> as Emperor Palpatine, General Zog or Hannibal
> Lector.

If he's not even that smart, then why is it so easy for him to control mormons and turn them into apostates? :>)

For example, they claim one reason you mustn't talk about temple ordinances is that Satan will hear. But at the same time, they believe Satan can manipulate our minds. So can't he find the ordinance while he's poking around, planting the desire to drink coffee and masturbate?

Way back in the day, when the Cardston Temple had 'live sessions' [Man they were bad!], Satan didn't appear when he should have. After a few uncomfortable moments, 'Peter' [or 'James', or maybe 'John'] had to open the little curtain thingy and wake him up... best damn temple session I ever attended - everyone smiled all the way through!

And I felt a lot better about 'Satan' after that!

Good one. Who knew SATAN had a sense of humor?

They want us to believe that we're part of family that has one really, really bad kid.

That kid is ripping the lives of this brothers and sisters to shreds and he's a fantastic bully. That kid has unbelievable powers and he's focused these powers on trashing the lives of all his siblings.

Dad just stands by and lets the bully beat the snot out of the other kids. And once every couple of thousand years he'll check in with the amazingly helpfull observation that "If you just ignore that shit-head brother of your's, maybe he'll go away". Knowing full well that your shit-head brother damned well isn't going to go away.

In fact, daddy knows that shit-head is going to keep terrorizing his little brothers and sisters and that most of them are going to suffer quite a lot of misery as a result. And he also knows that some of his kids are stupid enough that they're going to decide that 'big brother gets away with all this crap, so fark it, I'm going to be a shit-head too'.

Wait a minute, this sounds really familiar...

sherlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe that if Satan were real and smart as
> we've been led to understand, he would have worked
> out by now that simply doing nothing would be the
> one thing that would frustrate the plan of
> salvation. As he hasn't worked this out, I can't
> believe he exists and therefore everything else
> soon collapses.
> Has anyone raised this point with a TBM and been
> given a good, logical answer?

I've long thought that because, whenever you hear about supposed encounters with The Dark Lord (blessed be his name) the tale always concludes with the believer declaring that the encounter only strengened their belief in Jeezo. Satan would have to be a dolt to not catch on to that.

As I read the subject line, I recall my and my familys leaving the Morg. I hate to relate this, as it makes me sound weird, but here it is.
Within one week of resigning, all kinds of strange things happened in both, my mom's and my home. Like, both of our fridges quit the same day, our furnaces 2 days later. Than my dryer and her washer. A lamp exploded over mom's head as she walked underneath it, so she called me in the middle of the night to tell me "the devil must be in her house". I laughed as to how she said this, but told her, since she never gave up on Christ, to tell him to get out in his name, It was in the middle of the night and I wanted to go back to sleep, but mom being elderly, and obviously upset, I got dressed and drove over there. My transmission went out the moment I arrived in her driveway. Ok! So I was spooked as well. I mean stuff happens, but.... LOL!

Well, I prayed with her and the stuff stopped finally. I realise the things proably mean much, but it sure was weird, especially with the timing. I later told about that week to my best mo-friend, who said it's Satan's buffetings" which TSSC uses so liberally. I told her (pardon) "BS"!!! If the mormon church was true, he'd be thrilled we left and not bother us over it. Well, so ended our leaving the morg and my friendship with my good mormon friend(s). We all been trough that.

I don't give much thought to satan. He can go to hell. I know my story sounds weird, but not as weird as some of the stuff I learned since about mo-history.

I always wondered this, sitting/nodding off in the temple. My guess was that he was such a whiny prick he couldn't resist having some power and kicks in the meantime

Imaginary God and his imaginary minions are so inept that they can't get it right even when imaginary Satan isn't interfering.

God gives him his priesthood and power to screw with us.
Just nail down a Mormon on who gives Satan his power and watch them squirm.

Satan is nothing more then a plot device. Super Heros always need an arch enemy or there is no need for the super hero.

What is Wanted Wrote:
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> Satan is nothing more then a plot device. Super
> Heros always need an arch enemy or there is no
> need for the super hero.

Which is the whole point of the movie The Dark Knight.

:: like ::

Mormons always claim that anti-Mormons and apostates are servants of satan. But that is not scriptural.

http://packham.n4m.org/satan.htm

2 Ne 2:13 If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness.... And if these things are not there is no God.

D&C 76:25-29 An angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled ... was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son ... we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God ... maketh war with the saints of God

Moroni 7:12 All things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

Ether 8:25 ...the devil, who is the father of all lies...


From these verses we learn, all evil and sin is from satan/devil. He was once good, rebelled and was cast out. Without sin and righteousness, god ceases to exist.

The natural questions are, was there a god before lucifer became the devil? Will god cease to exist when he destroys satan?

The answer is, anyone who believes this crap is harboring serious cognitive dissonance.

Jesus Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Without sin and righteousness, god
> ceases to exist.

So if you believe in Jesus and the Atonement and you believe that Jesus up on the cross washes away your sins... then you have no need for god, then.... right?

I give my heart to Jeezus and that makes me righteous, right? I reform of my sins and repent.

Fantastic, and why do I need god after that? That is beautiful man!

I actually rejected the idea that Satan was necessary for the plan. I believed that Adam and Eve would have eventually have eaten the fruit, and that man would sin even without the devil's temptations. In my view, Satan was just a bad dude trying to muck things up for other people.

I had a few arguments for it that I thought were pretty good:

- If God judged us according to our hearts, and we would have never sinned had Satan not been around, God was in no place to condemn us for the things we did wrong. But of course he does condemn us, so we must sin under our own power.

- If the plan of salvation is perfect, it can't REQUIRE that one of god's children be eternally condemned. Therefore the plan must have been able to work without Satan's defection.

- If we don't sin without Satan's temptations, who tempted Satan? (Similar to Jesus Smith's argument.)

Of course my conclusion runs counter to the scriptures in JS's post. But since the traditional doctrine of Satan was so non-sensical and unjust, I decided to believe that those scriptures were simplistic and ought not to be taken too literally. I should have been an apologist...

Okay... this is great... Satan is kicked out of heaven with his 1/3... God says... okay lets make a plan, we will send these humans to earth to be tested (Satan and his minions provide the resistance, so earth-life is a test)... God declares that passing the test is essential to your purpose in life and is the only way to return to him!... Now, as Sherlock said, if Satan were really astute... (not imaginary) then Satan could figure out that he and his minions could just "do nothing" so God's plan would have NO TEST!!! That is brilliant. I can certainly see that stumping some Mor(m)ons... it would certainly give them cause for pause... or it might actually make some feel "smarter than Satan".:)

"On a dusty pew in a vestibule
Sits the Devil playing pocket pool
He's waiting for the next poor fool
Who forgot that it was Sunday."

-John Prine

http://www.jpshrine.org/lyrics/liner/notes_ldamb.htm

... and that Satan is actually the good guy.

Check it out:

God says "Do this, don't do that or I'll send you to burn in hell!"

Satan says, "Have a good time and I'll see you when you get back."

WTF, mates, can it get any more obvious than that?

Timothy

Right on, Timmy.

Pre-earth God: Agency, agency, agency!
Pre-earth devil: Control, control, control!

Present day god: Control, control, control!
Present day devil: Liberty, Freedom, Fun!

When did god and satan trade places?

Gods are so stupid!

Timothy

....somewhere.

Isn't he supposed to be in hell?

Poor deluded souls.

... and this gal comes up and tries to sell me a magic trinket.

The following conversation ensued:

BigTim "What does it do?"

Gal: "It keeps evil away"

BigTim: "But I am evil."

So you never know. Satan could be anyone, anywhere!

This is the gospel according to Timothy ... Please allow me to introduce myself, I’m a man of wealth and taste!

Timothy

It is impossible to have a rational logical discussion about religious magic. By definition, a person's religious beliefs are arbitrary and need not be logical.

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." —Mark Twain