That I can process this with. The couple of co-workers that I opened up to just said "Everything happens for a reason."

The hospital wouldn't give me any info. I asked my co-workers who have connections there "I don't want to know a name or anything else. I just want to know if the woman lived or died" And I gave the time-frame of arrival and the description of the woman. I told them what I had seen.

One co-worker who's relative works at the hospital said something to the effect of "I talked to "X" and she said they are really busy today. Did they pick her up at "B"? She was probably dead when they got there anyway. Try not to worry about it."

She knew information I didn't give her.

This is eating me alive. My wife is very very understanding and gave me menial tasks to focus on to try and get me centered. I couldn't even pick clothes out for my upcoming vacation. I just shuffled things around and forgot what I was doing.

I can't focus. I keep seeing her laying there. If she was DOA, it might have been different if I had stopped. Every second of blood/o2 deprivation to the brain matters. I calculated that I could have been working on her for about 2-3 minutes before the paramedics.

The people around her were "older". They might not have even had a cell phone, and probably didn't know CPR.

No matter what sympathetic things that could be true are posted, there is the possibility that I could have saved her. My brain can't think of anything else at the moment.

Replay Replay...

I just don't want to hear "there is a reason", and I KNOW that there is a possibility, no matter how slight, that she could be with her family right now if I had stopped.

About 40% of my brain was saying "go see". Maybe she was dead. Maybe I couldn't have helped. That is a very real possibility.

8% is better than 0. I fucked up.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2013 08:53PM by ragingphoenix.

Shit happens. Maybe you "fucked up." Maybe not.

I'm sorry that this is eating you alive--that is a very difficult sensation to live with.

Time will pass and you will gain clarity (and probably more charity for yourself).

Congratulate yourself for being aware of the situation, considering stopping, (probably) correctly assessing that there was adequate care on-scene, and then proceeding to your patient. You weren't callous or deliberately neglectful. What's more--you are beating yourself up about it, which demonstrates your high level of empathy (which seems to be important to you--you are on the right track!).

Remember--nobody's perfect and you can't get all of the answers right all of the time. But you can get some of them right occasionally. Here is an opportunity to learn from an innocent mistake and refine your emergency response protocol.

If you were this woman's friends or family would you want a passer-by to suffer a minute of un-rest for what transpired? I sincerely doubt it.

Forgiveness isn't exclusive to Mormonism. That includes forgiving yourself and moving on.

I assume that you will, eventually. I just hope that it doesn't become a preoccupation in the meantime. Time heals all wounds, I think...

If you are at the hospital, or can be, go to the Chaplains office. They are well versed in these issues and can help you work through it.

In the meantime, you cannot know what might have happened. There might even be the possibility that you just escaped a dread infection from a very sick person.

Since we cannot go back and try it again, all we can do is to vow to ourselves that if we're ever put in that situation, to do whatever we can. Even if it is merely to stay out of the way.

I'm sorry that you are going through such anguish. On the other hand, I'm glad that you have a depth of character that leads to this introspection. Please don't take that as flippant of patronizing...many people would just walk by and think nothing of it.

When you call 911 they guide you through the process of cpr.

The first thing they will ask is if they are breathing, and if there is a pulse. No? The EMT's will be there right away. There is most likely nothing that anyone could have done. They may have come to that conclusion long before you happened by.

You did not have anything to do with this person dying. Nothing.

The people that were there were the ones to help her, if there was even help to be had.

We cannot save the world. We weren't meant to. This was not your fault in any way shape or form.

Maybe, just maybe, she was someone like me. If I fall over dead,I would be so pissed if someone came along and saved me. I have a chronic illness. I'm not suicidal, but DNR is plastered all over my records, and ME. I wear a bracelet that says DNR, and I'm going to have a tattoo on the left side of my abdomen that says DNR. God forbid I should have a stroke and someone should save me.

I'm only telling you that so you can understand. For me, dying wouldn't be the worst thing. My family would be sad, but even they understand. I'm not saying this was the case for this person, but it might have been. You don't know. You don't have control over who lives and dies. It's not your responsibility.

You have such a tender heart. I think that's not so common in this world. It's difficult to hear you suffer when maybe you are suffering needlessly. I'm not the best with words, but I hope that I have maybe brought you a measure of peace.

If we ever happen to be in the same place together, and I drop over dead, I'll be so pissed at you if you bring me back! I say that with a smile. But I mean it!

I still say she might've been breathing the first time you passed by and went into cardiac arrest later when the EMTs arrived in which case there's absolutely NOTHING you could've done that would've changed the outcome.

You simply don't know all the facts of the situation, so the only rational thing to do is stop beating yourself up. Next time, you'll stop and see if there's anything you can do. OK? Let it go, shake it off, tomorrow is another day.

As I understand it, it is extremely unlikely that a couple of minutes of CPR one way or the other would be the difference between life and death.

The biggest issue would be starvation of oxygen to the brain causing brain damage.

The likelihood that you could have made a difference is very, very, very slim.

I was just informed that I could be sued for being CPR certified and not stopping.

Doubt that but it wouldn't surprise me. Also, I wonder if one did the CPR incorrectly, could he or she be sued?

I highly, highly doubt that. The law is that you are not required to render help--nobody is. Please don't start worrying about that stuff.

You're right that everything DOESN'T happen for a reason. But I think (and it looks like the other posters agree) that the likelihood that anything would have been different if you'd stopped would be extremely low. I do hope that someone at the hospital can give you some information so that you don't have the added uncertainty, but this was not your fault. Please take care of yourself.

If we all had to go through life wondering what we could have done, we'd be driven mad. We've all done something like this, then second-guess ourselves. Pick up and move on.

About 20 years ago, a man at the company next to ours had a heart attack. Someone came over to our offices immediately and Deb, who had CPR training, went to his aid. A distance of maybe 100 feet and less than two minutes total. She worked on him until the ambulance arrived but he was pronounced on scene.

You could have been standing NEXT to the woman when she collapsed and not been able to save her. I know it's hard, but please stop beating yourself up over this. You are not at fault and you are not to blame. You have absolutely no way of know if stopping would have made one whit of a difference.

ragingphoenix, reasoning isn't working, so . . . STOP IT! Tell yourself to STOP IT. Every time the self-blaming thoughts come up, tell yourself "STOP." You know what thought-stopping is, so do it. You are not the world's savior, so STOP IT. While you are doing that, try some moderate exercise to burn the adrenaline you're running.

And don't drink!

*hug*

Why stop at beating yourself up?

Assuming she had a heart attack, what about all the people in her life who sold her artery clogging food? Her friends who fed her artery clogging birthday cakes? What about the people attending who didn't know CPR? What about the people in their homes, looking out from behind their curtains? Why did the grocery store willing sell her unhealthy food? Why was she walking anyways? Kids not visiting and taking care of her? Who sneezed on her and gave her a respiratory infection? etc, etc, etc, etc...

Why aren't you beating up anyone one else, like you're beating up yourself?

Though what you're feeling probably FEELS quite real... it is just a feeling and it's not very rational. Your blaming yourself for anything about this situation is ridiculous. Grab hold of the rational aspect of this situation because you're letting 'feelings' over ride. (And that's very mormonic.)

Engage your rational mind, dude. You did absolutely nothing wrong.

No one likes feeling helpless. So sometimes they invent these daisychains of events where they could have done something, not been helpless. But it's an invention. You don't have enough information to know what the actual events were.

Exmo x4 years now, and trying to use my new found critical thinking skills. Is it possible that mormon defenders try to get us off topic as a deflective strategy? Is this guy for real? Hasn't there been multiple threads on this subject, wherein everyone is repeating the same advice but he doesn't appear to want to heed.

Sounds like you are entertaining conspiracy theories.

I apologize that I didn't "heed". I have PTSD from a related issue and I triggered really bad after what happened yesterday.

Apologies.

I appreciate everyone's advice and support and I'm thinking more clearly this morning. Probably taking the day off.

You should try to use your critical thinking skills to not be an ass, especially when someone is having a hard time. RagingPhoenix has been on here for years and this is part of what RFM is for - helping people process these kinds of things now that we don't have the Mormon church to give us ready made answers.

Next time before you make an accusation like this at least take a couple of seconds to do a search on a poster. Or better yet don't make the accusation since it's against forum rules and just report it to admin and let them sort it out.

RP you are NOT the person who should be apologizing here.

Note: Making assumptions, leveling accusations, and jumping to conclusions are not critical thinking skills. Buzz. Try again.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2013 08:50AM by bc.

Everything happens for a reason and that reason is called entropy.
NOT because some dumb ass secret hand shake obsessed MORmON god dictated it to make himself seem more important.

Every one of us would love to have a 'do over' on any number of things, but life goes on. Imagine if it happened to someone else and they came to you for advice, would you tell them that they suck and should spend the rest of their lives beating themselves up over it? Of course not. Please show yourself the same kindness and forgiveness that you readily give to others.

RP I hope you are feeling a bit better today. There is nothing more I can say that will help, but just sending you warmth, love and strength.

I'm feeling better! And thinking somewhat more clearly.

I had a complete emotional response and my brain was like a runaway train.

Today I'm closer to normal but I'm having a hard time focusing. I'm not even really thinking about what happened...my brain is just kind or acting like a strobe light...lol

Thanks for all of the support y'all...

Sorry I couldn't rationally get it to click yesterday. It must have been frustrating trying to help...but y'all did help and the comments are really helping today.

No need to say sorry at all! Geeshhh.. are you kidding?

Glad you are feeling better. Give yourself time. And be nice to yourself. :-)

Your reponse was completely understandable. I hope you were able to take today off to regroup.

I've actually been thinking about this thread all day, since I had a similar experience this morning...

I am a college rep, so a lot of my job includes driving around my part of the state to give presentations at high schools. I was cruising down the road today on my way to a high school (going pretty quick) when I had to slam on my breaks to avoid rear-ending a truck going 35 in a 55 zone. I got really upset and started thinking all sorts of nasty things about the driver, but I knew that the road was about to divide into 2 lanes when it passed through a small town, so I just dealt with it instead of zooming past the truck like a few other cars had done.

Once the road divided, the truck promptly got over to the right (almost alarmingly quick) and I cruised past (for some reason I made a point not to look over at the driver, but continued to call him names in my mind). Less than a mile later, something caught my eye in the rear-view mirror: I saw the truck I had just passed scrape along the curb, and then hop up onto the terrace. For some reason, at the time this didn't seem to alarm me too much, because I've seen my dad do this several times to do yard work, but then I saw the truck mow over a small electrical box and hit a tree.

The whole thing seemed to happen in slow motion. I couldn't figure out if I should stop or not! I don't know CPR, and I would have had to find a street to turn around. I was so worried about missing my presentation, that I just kept going. I'm very ashamed to admit that it took me almost 3 blocks before I finally called 9-1-1.

All day I've been thinking about the driver - I'm assuming he was old. The whole time he was driving off the road, it looked like he made absolutely no effort to stop the car or steer himself out of harm's way, which makes me wonder if he had a heart attack or lost consciousness. It made me think about my grandfather and how often I used to ride with him when I was little - I really hope that he didn't have any grandchildren in the car with him. Mostly, I feel horrible knowing that it's possible that if this guy died, the last thoughts anyone thought of him were thoughts of frustration about his driving.

I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but I can tell you that I sympathize with what you are going through.

Only about 5-10% of patients who receive CPR survive. Even then, it's not necessarily a good outcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_resuscitation

http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/35320/35323/372221.html?d=dmtHMSContent

You are suffering from survivor's guilt. I suggest counseling. It would help to talk to someone who works with EMTs/Firemen/Er staff, etc.

I cannot claim to feel such a deep sorrow, but when I have felt my greatest regrets in life, I have comforted myself to know that it is the greatest part of my humanity to care so deeply, and if I did not feel it so acutely, I would never be able to forgive my lack of feeling. You are a wonderful human being because you care....
I am so sorry. I am crying for you. Hang on...