I for one am not convinced that he has suddenly grown a conscience and decided that it is best for his church to step down. I think all should consider this a failed papacy, one in which a former member of Hitler's Youth exposed the heavy handed stick of the Pontiff. Ratzinger has long held the reigns of power at the Vatican but when it was his turn to also hold the traditional vestiges of power he exposed his true character. Ratzinger was the last in a long line of Inquisitor/Popes who hid the truth of the abuse and bigotry of his church.

Ratzinger however took it even further by denying the abuse and bigotry while actively working to subvert the evidence. He presided of a church that became the most politicized Papacy in years. Here in the US his church vocally opposed gay marriage and birth control.

To add to everything he was such a horrible man that even his butler betrayed him. His butler, sick of the corruption of the Vatican leaked thousands of documents many sourced directly to Ratzinger that exposed him as a power hungry man who would take any step to retain such power. Then in a last step of defiance he appointed new Cardinals in November and then again last week. He would have known what he was planning last week and had to wait to make sure that his successor was just as spiteful and devious as he was.

I am here to tell RFM that this man was forced out by blackmail. We may never know which of his many evils has come back to force him out of the most powerful position in Christendom but he didn't step down, he has consistently taken steps to consolidate his power and this is so against his character that blackmail is the only solution which makes sense to me.

I know that I haven't stated this well but consider the man and then judge the action.

This might have something to do with his "resignation."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-growing-vatican-bank-scandal-threatens-catholic-church-image-a-842140.html

You might be right.

I can think of several issues that made him, let's say, "ineffective."

I wonder if there is some backlash for him pushing the envelope in the USA too far with the birth control issue involved in the hot topic of health care. His actions added to the growing feeling here in the USA that there is a war on women. That in turn was a factor in conservatives losing the election.

I'm wondering if there was some pushback for that issue in addition to all the obvious ones (anti gay rights, child molestation cover ups, etc.). He hasn’t effectively addressed any of the issues that are causing a lot of negativity toward his religion. In fact, he has been unwilling to be progressive to adapt to modern changes and expectations people have for their religion to remain relevant.

I hardly think that just because he is old he wants to go off to a monastery. Many accommodations can be made for elderly popes.

Like with a bad CEO, I think the power-holders and string-pullers are looking at the numbers and he is getting pushed out. Maybe he is willing and suggested he step down so someone else can try to do a better job, but I can't believe it is solely because he old or feeble. I wasn't born yesterday. There are other reasons.

I know this topic is beat to death by now, but I had to wait all day to see what other RfMers had to say!

Isn't there some US pedophile priest being given sanctuary in the Vatican?

Cool. But you'll be posting the evidence real soon, yes?

We are all ears.

I know we only have unfounded speculation. Evidence from behind closed doors in religion is hard to come by as I'm sure you would agree. :-) This happens with our discussions about Mormonism all the time too, Matt.

Usually people don't come out and tell all the real reasons behind a decision.

If there is evidence, I doubt even the butler can get it. :-)

We'll have to take the explanation at face value, but given their history for being forthcoming with facts, I think we are justified to suspect there is more to the story.

It is possible, but I would kind of like to see the evidence. Just saying.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is possible, but I would kind of like to see
> the evidence. Just saying.

Unless Jacob is creating a Faith ***Demoting*** Rumour? ;oD

I am not a fan of Benedict, but some of the hatred here is really over the top. If anyone has proof of all this crap, I am dying to see it.

"[E]vidence of hatred...?" Pretty strong language. Perhaps jacob feels as strongly about Ratzinger as many ex-Mos do about TSCC. For good damned reason. I accept his sincerity in stating that evidence is not going to fall into anyone's lap.

That much we've learned, haven't we, after a lifetime of conning, manipulation, and outright lying from the church to call another potential religious scandal, at the hands of this man, "crap." Jesus Christ.

I posted a vid link last week on this forum that revealed the sordid pedophile culture in the RCC, including Ratzinger's role in the cover-ups.

I think that the story is exactly how it's being presented. He's old, he's tired, and he wanted to retire ten years ago. He probably never in a million years thought that he'd live this long.

As someone else pointed out, he also got the opportunity to see JPII in his long decline, and possibly thought to himself that there had to be a better way.

His resignation is not without precedent. It's been done before, a half a dozen centuries ago. But in the history of the Catholic church, that's a blink of the eye.

If you were LDS, would you wonder what factors were behind the actions of the GAs? We speculate here all the time.

As long as we specify what we think is sheer speculation, no one should misunderstand.

As summer says, maybe there isn't anything else to the story. It is rare. 600 years out of 2000 is hardly a blink of the eye, IMO.

Maybe this pope isn't into power and prefers solitude. Maybe being pope wasn't as fun as he hoped!

dagny Wrote:
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> If you were LDS, would you wonder what factors
> were behind the actions of the GAs? We speculate
> here all the time.

EXACTLY my point. Thank you.

I'm not crazy about wild eyed speculation and gossip about the GAs either unless there is some actual evidence.That is just my personal preference, but I think some of these theories and accusations reflect poorly on those who come up with them. For those of you who enjoy it, don't let lack of evidence stop your fun.
I am not talking about general speculation, but about calling him a Nazi, a child molester and claiming he resigned because he was being blackmailed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2013 08:48PM by bona dea.

Do you not recall news stories regarding:

Declining participation
Financial woes
Shortage of priests
Gay equality
Child abuse cover ups
Women’s rights suppression

Yeah, nothing to speculate about at all there. It's all wild-eyed.

And yes, this is nothing new for the Church, but this pope has not been a fund raiser or charismatic to attract and retain people. Do the math.

A lot of those problems existed long before Benedict-especially the shortage of priests,the opposition to the churches' ban on birth cpontrol and the ordination of women. People were discussing these things when I was a kid in the 50s and 60s. You can't blame Benedict for that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2013 09:06PM by bona dea.

His resignation is without precedent, this has never happened before.

One man was bought out of office because he was horrible and ended up Pope again anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_IX

One man refused but was elected anyway, he resigned a few months afterward after proclaiming I can do this and I will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_V

One man made a deal to become pope only to negotiate a way to end the Western Schism, he reneged on the deal and had a friend negotiate his way out. He was after resignation still considered the Pope and a new Pope wasn't elected until after his death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gregory_XII



I think it is a legitimate question to ask, why did he do this, especially since he was not the first pope to be old and infirm? No one ever has resigned of old age and we are supposed to believe that this is normal? Believe if you will that this on the up and up but I still think it stinks of palace intrigue.

He's an old man - he never wanted to be Pope. After John Paul II died, it was his plan to retire to Bavaria and enjoy the time he had left. He probably didn't want the whole world to watch him die like we did with JPII. If I had to chose between having the whole world watch my body start to fall apart, or spending the little time I have left in a cottage up in the alps, you better believe I'm picking Bavaria each time.

A lot is made of the fact that he was in the Hitler Youth...all young children were members of the Hitler Youth. I have a very good friend over in Germany who was a member when he was little - he had no choice in the matter. You were setting yourself up for more problems if you decided not to be.

I'm not a huge Benedict fan - but I think that a lot of that had to do with the fact that John Paul II was a tough act to follow. I wish him nothing but the best in his retirement.

Agreed. Kids had no choice about being the Hitler Youth. It was pretty much mandatory.

I can agree with that. I wouldn't want to be blamed for growing up Mormon.

I don't know if he wrote strongly against what the Hitler Youth stood for and that he wishes he had not been involved- that would make his case. I suspect he has.

And you know every single German youth involved in Hitler's atrocities, from the time of their involvement, to be able to speak for them collectively, but what jacob has to say about one man is a load of crap? What hypocrisy.

He was a child and hardly of sufficient rank to be involved in the Holocaust or the like.

I agree. It's easy to claim they had a choice, but young boys at the time in Germany had NO choice. Blaming him as a young boy for being in that group when he had no choice, is absolutely ridiculous. I'm not condoning the pope, or his church, but this criticism always strikes me as the most stupid.

Money and Power are the bottom line with this bunch.

The looming Vatican bank scandal has the various factions within Vatican City at each other's throats. The next pope will be Italian is my guess, with some real "Godfather" action going on behind the scenes. I don't for a moment belive his "I'm just too old for this job" speech.

They feel distraught and let down.

And many are singing god's praises right now, they hope that the College of Cardinals will be sufficiently embarrassed by this unprecedented action that they will elect someone who can actually lead their church instead of drag it back to the 18th century.

I think Jacob comes across as a bit paranoid.

I'll just leave it at that.

Yeah.

Paranoid of what exactly? I am not a conspiracy theorist at all, I am just extremely suspicious of this whole thing. I am also sick of the praises that this man has gotten since he is not the man that many make him out to be.

They've come a long way from dying on the cross to retiring because they are tired. Such sacrifices.

Even priests and nuns retire. How many of us would want to work at a high profile, full time, demanding job until age 85, no matter how much help we got? My mom worked part time until her mid-70's, until she reached a point where she just couldn't physically do it any more. It's a rare person who can work that long.

The thing is, for Catholics that actively follow Vatican news, it wasn't a "sudden" resignation. In 2011 when his health started to deteriorate he was asked if he would ever consider resignation and mentioned that it was not unprecedented in the Church and definitely something he would consider.

He also was very vocal about not wanting the position back when he was being considered for the papacy. He saw what JP2 went through in his last few years of life/illness and expressed his belief he was too old for the position. Besides, when JP2 was sick, Cardinal Ratzinger basically WAS running the Catholic Church.

I think it's more simple than it seems. The position of Pope requires extensive travel and exemplary communication skills. Ratzinger, at this point, cannot fulfill either one of those requirements.

We get it - he's old and tired

Gee, if only there was some way he could appeal to some sort of supernstural power

If only...

He has had plenty of time to retire the necessary documents to the vault, to reward his co-conspirators with cardinalships, to punish his enemies and settle scores.

At his age, legacy is what is important. He will go down in history, all popes do, but as what? Far better be the first pope to pension himself off rather than be the one who is assassinated in fulfillment of the Fatima prophecy.

Love me some religious urban legends, I do.

He ought to count himself lucky-- he lives surrounded by religious fanatics all willing to die (or murder?) for what they believe is good for Holy MOther Church.

Just like the Hofmann settlement, there is more to that story and we will never hear the complete truth. Same with this resignation. I lean toward him protecting his legacy and making sure the faithful do not know what he has done.

Pure speculation, of course. I do think it is highly unlikely that he is just old and tired. The saints are venerated for enduring great physical hardship to serve god. The martyrs gave their lives rather than deny their beliefs and Moses couldn't get out of his vocation even though he wasn't good at public speaking. God gave him an assistant. The pope has lots of assistants. He could just Ezra Taft Benson the rest of his life and nobody would care that he actually spent his time in his Lazyboy waving even when there was no crowd.

There's more to the story, we just don't know what it is.

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