Has anyone heard of anyone demanding their tithe $$ back from the church after discovering it is not true? Does anyone know if there has ever been a lawsuit to that end?
IANAL - I heard a rumor about a guy in the UK trying that, but I doubt it would work in the US. It was a donation and you'll never get it back.
It makes me a little sick to think about how much I gave the church (time and money), but in the end I just had to chalk it up to "life experience" and move on.
I was wondering the same thing. Couldn't you say were coerced into "donating" money? After all, you can't go to the temple (or heaven) if you don't pay up. I have also heard stories of bishops harassing members for tithing settlement. Are there any lawyers on here that could give their legal opinion?
I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean will the members ever gain critical mass by enough members joining the legal effort, or something, then I would say no, no chance.
The problem is that a "donation" is just a gift. Gifts are irrevocable. If the gift was given in exchange for something, then it would be a contract which raises certain legal obligations on the part of the recipient. But a gift is one sided and irrevocable. Think of the scenario where Fangduster T. Barrelbottom says to Poor Sweet Daisy, "I'll really like you if you give me some money." So Poor Sweet Daisy gives Fangduster everything she has in her wallet. When she discovers that Fangduster may or may not in fact like her, which is subjective anyway, she will lose if she sues for return of the money.
It's also the same as when you give someone a birthday present, then later you have a falling out with that person and demand the return of the gift. Ethics aside, you have no legal claim for return of the gift because you transferred all legal title the moment you delivered the item, retaining no legal interest whatsoever. Tithing is the same.
That's different than when you purchase services from a professional, for example. You give them money in exchange for specific, verifiable services, and when the services go unprovided, you can sue for damages, which include, among other possible remedies, return of your money.
Tithing is not given to LD$, Inc. in exchange for any specific, verifiable goods or services or anything of value. It is given in exchange for "heavenly rewards."
They call it a "gift" to the authorities. They present it to their own members as a "law". Read their literature. It is not optional or there is punishment. Does this fit the definition of gift?
Wrong angle Mr. Lawyer. You're looking only at how they declare it, not at how they present it to the swindled.
Is a gift a gift when it comes with social stigma if not paid in full? Is it a gift if there are terms and conditions?
The legality is not what they declare it. The legal question is CAN they declare it to in fact be a gift?
I'm not arguing the rightness or wrongness of it. As a lawyer I don't do good and evil. I just do legal. The secular authorities do not care how the matter is presented in the ecclesiastical context. They only care whether it is a bargained for exchange of legally cognizible consideration. To be technical. "Worthiness" to enter the temple, or eternal blessings, are not choate valuables that can be sufficient consideration to form a contract. Just like in my Fangduster T. Barrelbottom analogy where he promised to like someone in exchange for money. American law will treat the "transaction" the same as it treats any other analogous "transaction," and if you were to strip away the religious coatings, this one is no different than Fangduster and Daisy. Vague promises of something of no legal value do not constitute consideration.
The Man in Black Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Is a gift a gift when it comes with social stigma > if not paid in full?
The answer is: absolutely yes. What if you didn't give Xmas gifts to your children? There is social stigma because basically everyone would think you were a douche and your children would hate you. But does that mean that what you gave your children were not actually gifts? Nope. A gift is a gift regardless of the motivations of the giver, and regardless of the manipulations of the givee, so long as the givee didn't promise anything of actual value in exchange.
>Is it a gift if there are > terms and conditions?
First, there are no terms and conditions to tithing. It is understood by everyone that LD$, Inc. can use the money however the eff it wants and the giver has no say. Second, even if there were terms and conditions attached to the money, that doesn't mean that the giver RECEIVED anything of value, which is the critical question here.
If by "terms and conditions" you mean that the person FEELS obligated to give or else, then I think what you really are talking about is coercion or duress. Duress is a very strict, high legal standard, and basically requires a physical gun to your head. Hellfire is imaginary, so it won't cut it in court.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2011 12:09AM by resipsaloquitur.