This is essentially my FIL's testimony... He has encouraged us to basically read Alma with him and then for us to discuss. I'm trying to decide how best to respond, other than 'no thanks'. I want it to have some sort of impact so that he can realize that a) it doesn't mean anything to us, and b) there are other works of literature that can have deep meaning and impact, and c) so that we can hint at the fact that he was reading too much into his situation at the time, and still today.

"Alma 32 was exactly what I needed to read back then...When Alma discovers the reason they are destitute and despised, he takes advantage of the opportunity to explain this is a good thing, so he can preach the word of God to them. He says they were in an attitude to receive the word; meaning the word of God. The entire chapter for me was all about my mental state, and becoming humble. The reason this was meant for me at this time was because I had just been humbled. The Army has that affect on folks; especially after basic training. Won't go into that now, but suffice it to say that I was compelled to be humble. These were the exact words Alma used with these people, so obviously I felt Alma was speaking directly to me.

If you count the times Alma uses the word humble from verse 6 thru 16, there are NINE times! I felt the Lord was preparing me to hear these things at this time. Later, I had a firm witness that, in fact, He (Heavenly Father) was speaking directly to me through Alma. This is why I have always loved these passages of scripture.
The Spiritual witness was undeniable, and I knew by the power of the Holy Ghost, that these words were true. If I may quote the prophet Joseph, "I knew it, I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it!"

I think he's essentially insinuating that we don't have the right attitude, and aren't humble and that's why we're questioning the Church as we have sent him a TON of info. on how the Church isn't true, or honest, and should be questioned. Yet, even after us giving him all this info. (like BoA, polygamy/polyandry, archeological, etc), he's still wanting to do this. I genuinely think he is a for real TBM and is just bent in his own mind on the fact that if we just read this with the 'right' attitude, we'll just stop questioning and it will hit us that we really do have a testimony...! Any thoughts? Why are TBMs SO brainwashed?

I wish I knew.

My exwife is the same way. Nothing!!! makes any difference.
Her mind is set. No changing it.

I'm the one with a problem. If I would just read the bom with an open heart. (forget about rational mind) I would see it is all true.bla bla.

Good luck.

Faith cannot be sustained on falsehoods and deception. Faith is not sufficient when all tangible evidence contradicts the church. "Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." --Thomas Edison

I know, right? We just CanNot get through to him no matter what we say! It's a little unreal.

You could tell him that desperate people have also been receptive to the message of Communism.

Actually, I would just stick with, "no thanks." It's simple, it's direct, it establishes a boundary, and it shuts him down. You may have to rinse and repeat as needed.

Drug induced channeled writing must have some value. Of course, there are other channeled works that are way easier to read.

Why? "LOL, not interested. I like reading good literature. LOL!"

Gag. I gagged when the stake first counselor told me he had read the BoM 22 times and believed. I think it would pay to read something about where JS got Alma from. Of course, the real TBMs would say it just meant the place he got was "inspired" in part and JS knew to use it. That TSCC has convinced members today that it no longer means the indians were lamanites, just that somewhere, some may be lamanites...
Pretty soon, it will teach that the last Lamanite must have died and that the people, natives of the American continents, must have killed the last of them and perhaps reference "The Last of the Mohicans" and members will buy it.

Anyone who can buy the BoM as being anything but a fake, is ready to buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

Ironically, the BoM is pristine compared with the other TSCC special scriptures.

At some point you need to back up a step and agree to disagree. If he isn't willing to do that then you need to start distancing yourselves from him and make it clear that the reason you are doing it is because of his unwillingness to follow the 11th article of faith. This battle is destroying your relationship with each other and I'm afraid it's getting more and more irreparable. He needs to understand that his insistence is only pushing you further away from both him and from the church.

If now is not that time to do that ask him if he is also willing to read something else with you and discuss it (Todd Compton's book could be one.) If he is not willing to do that then it's an easy chance to say "why should I look at your stuff if you aren't willing to at ours - no thanks."

If you do decide to read & discuss Alma with him, let me know and I'll skip forward on my commentary of problems with the Book of Mormon and work on Alma so you can use it - let me know if that would be helpful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2013 06:42PM by bc.

I agree with this. Don't let the church ruin your valued family relationships.

How many times have you read the bom? Personally I think I've read it at least a dozen times, as well as having read all of the standard works through from cover to cover. I even read the entire old testament without skipping a single word (don't ever do that). I don't see how reading it again would make any difference. I'm sure you know quite well what is in Alma and what it's all about. Reading it for time number 13 just won't make it any different. Maybe point that out and then go with the 11th article of faith.

bc, you're right on. It's funny because the first thing that came to my mind was thinking about what you're doing and wondering if anyone else had anything more complete. It will be really helpful to others in general once you get that done, so know that you are doing 'good and important' work! ;)

If someone else has done it then I don't want to do it :)

From what I can tell it doesn't exist in that format - other than at skeptics annotated which has some pretty big limitations since they don't have a Mormon background.

How about, "Well, I'm glad it works for you, but since I consider it a work of fiction, and I've read it several times, I don't feel that it has any value for me to continue to read it. If you find an enlightening passage in this book, or any other book you read, feel free to pass it along, and I'll do the same."

Well said.

Thanks!

Ask why JS never taught out of the BofM.....
or better yeat ask him to provide you with some data where JS taught out of the BofM... can't do it- he didn't

No plan of salvation or temple BS in the BOM either.

Because you don't agree with THEM . . . . is extremely arrogant.

How ironic that he blames YOU for a lack of humility.


BTW, this is one of those manipulative accusations discussed in Cheryl's thread earlier today. Your lack of faith is supposedly a character flaw. So he wants to drill his point of view into you until you agree with him. Relentlessness argument is ALSO a controlling technique.

Just say no. Set a boundary. You will choose your reading and your beliefs, and he can choose his. Tell him that you understand his disagreement, and even his concern. But you feel confident in your decision about the church. If he's not comfortable, you are sorry, but he'll have to find a way to make peace with it.

This is true.... I think I'm going to use this thought.

I gain a testimony of sleep when I read the BoM. Few things are more reliable for sending me off to slumberland. Every time I read, "and it came to pass," it is like ingesting a soporific.

There's always Leviticus...

A massive headache.

what pisses me off is that when member ask you to read the BoM, they say it as if you have never read it before. Like you're some kind of idiotic dumbass fresh off the turnip truck. I have personally read the bible 3 times and the bom, at least two. What exactly would change with me reading it again? Oh ya, and I forgot to mention I listened to the goddamn audio tapes of the BoM stories too when I was 12 or so.

How many licks does it take?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2013 10:45PM by Tupperwhere.

:-P "No thanks" is working for me.

I mean -- I think you should stay out of the trap of what you might call "reverse Mormonism" where you try desperately to make others (here, Mormons) feel your feelings and think your thoughts -- just as Mormons do with the "world."

Yeah -- BoM is unreadable, but you don't have to convince them or anyone else. You get it. That is the great thing. A simple "no thanks" change of subject will save wear and tear on the relationship -- and probably on you as you won't have to deal with the frustration of not being heard.

that's true. And I would never re-read that stupid crap just to please someone else. It just bugs me when they act smug about asking if you've read it before and then present to you the "challenge" as if it's new material. Maybe a new response would be to ask them if they've read it with their glasses on lol

Simple tit for tat, if he wants to read alma and discuss, then you get to read of Mormon think and discuss,it's only fair to allot the same amount of time to both positions.

Either his cog diss will shut it down and he will stop bugging you or you might reach him...

Agreed!

If you're speaking with someone who has learned boundaries, then I would respond something along the lines...

"I really appreciate your wanting me to share your study of the Book of Mormon. I can tell it really means a lot to you. If I believed that it would actually be of any benefit to me, I would gladly join you; nevertheless, due to what I have come to learn and believe about the Church and that book, I do not share your belief in it any longer and do not wish to waste my time or yours in a study of it. Thank you"

If .you're speaking with someone who has no sense of boundaries, I would respond something along the lines...

"No thank you. I don't care to study that with you, and no amount of begging, pleading, cajoling, or nagging will change my mind. Please don't ask me again. If I ever change my mind, I will let you know. Unless or until then, please don't bother me about this again. Thank you."

It's really quite simple:

Until the TBM crosses the 'THRESHOLD', there ain't a thing here on Earth that will awaken them from their 'slumber/fantasy'.

Jump in, the water's fine...

It's the 'jumpin in' that's the hardest part...

Keep the water temp around 100 F and wait...........

I suggest that you both try reading something new to expand your horizons. Maybe some scientology! If the dude ain't willing to examime writings of other bliefs, then I would be just as closed minded as he is (and let him know it). Some lady has a book out on leaving scientology, maybe that would be cool to read.