In a previous off-topic thread I got a lot of good advice from many.
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,821510
Thank you group for all the support.

I wanted to respond to a few of the comments that I can't now that it's closed.

anagrammy wrote:
>>Going forward, please consider NOT being available for this woman as a friend because you are emotionally vulnerable to her manipulations<

bookratt wrote:
>>She is being passive aggressive...Commit to having no more contact in any form with her, and move on.<

Both anagrammy and bookratt said the same thing: Avoid her. She started texting me today and being sweeter--that she can't imagine a life without me and would be happy if we were friends, if nothing else. I'm torn because I still want to be friends. But I don't want to be manipulated if she is truly passive aggressive.

Has anyone good references on how to recognize and deal with passive aggressive persons?


WinksWinks wrote:
>>I think both of you two were not communicating well, and you have a lot of expectations she was supposed to meet without you ever spelling them out. That said, this relationship wasn't going to work because both of you tiptoed around your real feelings, assuming things that the other person should "just know". It is good you guys separated, now go work on yourself and learn how to communicate your needs instead of avoiding direct talk.<

It's true, I failed in communication. At first, a couple of months into the relationship, when she had requested that I do something for her that I was reluctant to do, I brought up the issue I felt about making most (or actually all) of the sacrifices to keep the relationship going--I drove to her always, paid for all meals, was her ear and more. I approached it by asking her what she felt she was sacrificing in order to have a relationship with me. She said that she couldn't think of any and further didn't think it was a fair thing to bring up because if one truly loves the other, it's not a sacrifice. It's something you want to do for the other. I said that in fact, we make compromises in relationships in order to reach a common point. I listed those things I felt were sacrifices on my part. When I did, she began crying and told me that I had made her feel badly because it seemed as though I was labelling her negatively. I pulled back on that and decided it wasn't worth causing her to feel badly. I know, I don't own her feelings, but I didn't like her crying all the same.

Thereafter, I limited my communication when I felt it might cause her negative feelings. That's incorrect, I know, but I was willing to let certain things go and just accept her without complaint. She is a really nice person. But apparently, her ways are subtle and passive aggressive. I have a hard time seeing this. And I know she doesn't mean badly. But I can't be with someone who doesn't sacrifice back.

So again, I need to learn how to recognize passive aggressive behavior in myself and others.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2013 02:50PM by Jesux of Nazdaq.

Well, I really didn't understand passive aggressiveness either until way into adulthood. That's because I had been raised on it from a very young age - my family AND much of mormonism. Passive aggressiveness is never saying no, never expressing a negative feeling, and simply not doing something.

For example, on another board, someone mentioned that they had been challenged to go to the temple MORE in their EQ group for some reason (increased baptisms or something). No one would challenge this openly. But most people just wouldn't do it. That's passive aggressive (to my mind).

OR, like an example from college, a roommate would complain all the time about driving friends around in her car. But she would never say no. She would just b*tch about people behind their backs. That's passive aggressive.

I may not know what I'm talking about here. Lots of wise people on rfm may have a much better/simpler definition. But there was not a lot of "owning" or accountability in mormonism. To own your feelings or membership, you may have to leave (which is never okay). Passive-aggressive behavior is a coping mechanism that people learn, and it can be unlearned.

PS. I was mentioning co-dependency, because co-dependency is about being responsible for yourself, and not another person's feelings. I recommend "Co-Dependent no more" by Melodie Beatty. It's been out for a long time, so you can probably find a used copy. It's all about recognizing and expressing anger in healthy ways - about setting boundaries, about not taking responsibility for another person's feelings. It's also about learning how to deal with conflict, and not to mind-read.

This is a good way to frame your own recovery. You already recognize you have a problem; however, the way you are framing it is causing additional problems.

It is not a matter of identifying passive aggressive behavior in yourself and others. It is learning what constitutes a healthy relationship between people.

Last month at a Buddhist psychology meeting I met a woman who told me that her CODA group had saved her life. CODA is an organization which supports people dedicated to throwing off a codependent life style. It came out of the Al-Anon movement which supports codependents who have alcoholic family members.

We ex-Mormons tend to have codependent features because we have been conditioned to always say yes, not to cause trouble, to "help" anyone who asks, never turn down a calling, always look good, pretend to be happy even if you are miserable, etc. These are not healthy and in no way represent an authentic life.

I would like to suggest that you find a CODA group in your area, and if there is none, an Al-Anon group. I have gone to Al-Anon and felt I benefited because you talked about managing your life and relationship based on healthy principles.

Recently I had a conversation with a daughter who was having trouble doing things "just because I want to" rather than doing "what I should be doing." I told her that being uncomfortable with someone else's plan for your day is sufficient justification for canceling plans. You don't have to explain. You are an adult and can do what you want with no more justification than that.

This is a completely foreign concept to those recently out of Mormonism. IT is the opposite of our conditioning. We have been taught that what we want is probably wrong or evil, that we should be "anxiously engaged in a good cause." We should not listen to our own ideas, rather wait for the brethren to do the thinking. We should not read or research the ideas of others because that's just the "arm of flesh" or "words of man mixed with scripture."

You are doing great sorting this out. Coming to RfM is a smart move because you have a cross section of opinions here. Bookratt and I are kindred spirits, so I'm not surprised we think alike.

The reason we advise you to stay away is because it is up to you to take care of your tender feelings. The love you have for this woman and the kindness/services you bestowed in the past are missed by her. That does not mean that she values you, sorry to say. It just means she misses the love she took for granted and did not reciprocate.

It is a positive that you are able to love like this. Many people cannot feel what is now causing you pain. The suffering you feel can comfort you in that you can love fully and be willing to give and give -- to someone who can fully return that love and not take advantage of you.

Who knows, maybe you'll meet someone new at a CODA meeting!

Best

Anagrammy

Hi Anagrammy. I went to a CODA meeting in my area last night. I was surprised to see the list of patterns that I do fit, and it scared me because some of those traits are what I would assign a manipulative person. I feel humbled that I could be considered manipulative after all the times I labelled my ex with that tendency.

( http://www.coda.org/tools4recovery/patterns-new.htm )

I think I will attend more meetings. It's hard to confront so many weaknesses on my part. I was asked to tell what brought me to CODA and I mentioned the pattern I have of attracting manipulators, which I attribute considerably to being raised as a mormon who was expected to be accomplished and agreeable. That raised discussion among the other members and I felt included.

On the other hand, the ex GF is now texting me and trying to engage me back into her life. I see the trends in her much better. She isn't a blatant covert aggressive person, but she has many of the traits. She's spent more than 100 texts (the most she's done since the month or two after we started dating) defending herself, calling me out for having "superior" feelings to her when, after pressed by her to explain what I really thought, I gave her some of the flaws I felt she had that led to my own self-defeating behaviors. Instead of really owning up to them, she turned around and told me that she's really fine and that I have it all wrong. In the end I just agreed and told her that she was lucky to dodge the bullet of being in a LTR with me. I think she feels much better and is finding closure.

On the other hand, I feel less closure because I had to fall back on my co-dependent pattern to give her closure. I had to placate her defending herself and not bring up any of the reall major issues. It wouldn't do any good, as I am not getting back with her, even though in the end, she still acted like she would leave that open.

I'm going to remain strong and avoid her more and more until we can fully separate ourselves.

Thanks for all the great advice everyone.

This relationship stuff is messy.

Remember, it's not your responsibility to make this okay for her. It is a good idea to be open, firm and polite.

Sometimes politeness doesn't work, and people (read some boundary ignoring mos like those that show up at Shannon's) need you to be rude. They won't get the message otherwise.

All this takes practice and time. You won't do it perfectly at first, but with time you'll learn. In other words, don't beat yourself up (I have a habit of second guessing myself).

Finally, some ex's will say that they want to be friends, when really they want to part on good terms. When it comes down to it, they really don't want to be friends. But this is also very common...often people in a ltr cannot return to friendship, and that's okay.

Do not be too quick to label what you did as wrong.

The truth is that she is on her own path and is fine where she is. She is defending and explaining as her ego defense and she is using texting, which has been acknowledged as the least effective means of communication on the planet. Her path is her path--she is not ready to hear what you presented. Perhaps two more relationships downstream she will be open to hear it. Meanwhile, she will blame her failures on other people until she opens to other possibilities FOR HERSELF. It really isn't about you.

One of the most powerful statements floating around is "When the student is ready, the teacher appears." Since life teaches everyone equally, we realize our teachers are always around us--we just don't "hear" them until we are ready.

Recently I got proof of that in my own life. My son's marriage crashed and I was visiting my daughter in law while he was in detox. This was a couple of months ago. She asked me whether/what to tell the children and I gave her my advice. This week she told me on the phone that a panel of child psychiatrists got together at the therapy place and gave her the guidance she needed about what to tell the kids. It was exactly what I told her, even the same words. I realized that she did not hear what I told her because she was not ready to admit that she would have to tell the children. At that time she was thinking they would do it as a couple at the point when they could give the kids a date when Daddy would move back in.

This is not about me or my advice being "good" or "correct." It is about timing.

One of the most beautiful concepts of compassion I learned in Buddhism is that other people on their paths are where they are supposed to be, doing their best with the insight they have. It's possible to observe a lower skill level in dealing with relationships without judging the people to be "deficient." This is not incompatible with taking good care of yourself. You know yourself best and you are the person who knows your good motives and what's inside your head.

I wouldn't worry about correcting your bad habits or judging yourself as this or that. As you move towards better health by opening yourself to accept new ideas about your paradigm, your assumptions, a lot of what you thought were your "tends to" flaws will disappear. They were never "you," they were anchored in assumptions that were false.

Look at what happens when you dropped the assumption that the brethren do the thinking for your life. The root of our unhappiness was being deprived of leading our own lives and the strength and respect that comes from having confidence in your own inner wisdom to guide you.

I am so glad you went to a CODA meeting. We are meant to interact in support groups of like minded peers, sharing experiences with mutual respect. Very different from the dispirited and posturing that goes on in church meetings.

Best

Anagrammy

She doesn't sound like a passive aggressive person. She sounds like a covert aggressive person.

The covert aggressive person preys on neurotic personalities. If you have a sensitive conscience, the covert aggressive will use it against you. When you come to her with a problem, she'll not only convince you that she has no problems at all, but that YOU have all the problems. Often that conversation will end with YOU saying sorry.

Later, when you're thinking about the conversation, you realize you no longer know which way is up. You know something is wrong, but you can't put your finger on it. An effective covert aggressive will keep you questioning your sense of reality so you can never quite pin down her manipulations.

Sound familiar? If so, she's a covert aggressive.

I think the crying was manipulative and should be a major red flag in terms of recognizing passive-aggressive behavior.

Had she been open to constructive feedback, taken responsibility for her actions, and apologized for putting you out and asking for too much in the friendship, then I would say, yes, rekindle the friendship. But she wants to cry and whine that you make her feel badly when all you were trying to do was communicate like an adult. I bet you didn't yell, criticize, call names, or raise your voice, right? Now, when you let it go and started limiting communication, that's passive on your part. You don't really want to do any of that. You'd rather either hash things out openly, or just cut off the friendship altogether, right? So by keeping your feelings to yourself, you are showing her that all she has to do is pour on the tears and you will cave and then she won't have to change her behavior to keep your friendship.

I'm thinking if you have to make so many sacrifices just to be her friend and you think of those things as sacrifices, she's more of a project to you than a friend. If I were her, instead of crying, I'd have just cut off the friendship. One of you should because this is only going to result in more tears.

You guys make good points: My unwillingness to communicate my feelings made me into a passive person, on the verge of a passive aggressive. I didn't make my interests known and then later I complain that they weren't heard. I don't want to be that way. The tricky part is understanding when my interests are legitimate and when I am being too demanding or too whiny.

Dogzilla wrote:
> I'm thinking if you have to make so many sacrifices just to be her friend and you think of those things as sacrifices, she's more of a project to you than a friend.<

It's true. But on the other hand, a relationship does require give and take (sacrifice and receipt). Thinking of me always doing the driving 50+ miles each way and paying for all meals/fun might not be a huge sacrifice, but it can feel that way if when I go there I do find sometimes I am engaged more in a project that an equal exchange.

JamesM wrote:
>The covert aggressive person preys on neurotic personalities. If you have a sensitive conscience, the covert aggressive will use it against you. When you come to her with a problem, she'll not only convince you that she has no problems at all, but that YOU have all the problems. Often that conversation will end with YOU saying sorry.<

Holy crap! I've been there a few times. My ex wife is that to a Tee. Perhaps this woman is too.

On the other hand, once I started withdrawing from her, I even found myself playing covert aggressive games. I'm ashamed of that now. I wanted to see if she would sacrifice for me after I had given much to her. I dropped hints and waited to see if she would reciprocate what I had done in spades. She didn't. That was part of my reason for ending it.

I guess what I did was a test, rather than a straight out manipulation. I wanted to see what kind of person she really is without having to prompt it directly. It's covert. And instead of finding a way to manipulate the behavior from her, I decided to leave. So I didn't take it as far as a true manipulator, but I was at the edge. I don't like that about me.

Your BS detector is working and that's good news. As far as understanding or relating to toxic people, the best advice I can give is to simply not engage with this woman. No texts no texts back or call backs nif she contacts you, no emails. Done.

If you broke up with her via email or phone rather than in person, that's a big no-no. You were in the wrong there. But this woman is not right for you. You realize that. Good.

I once read a book, years ago, called The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker and while I think he is not as highly thought of as he once was, what's in that book stood me in good stead after some close brushes with some highly aggressive people in my life. Taught me to trust myself, when I got that hinky feeling something was off or not right.

There used to be a decent book on how to deal with toxic people, cant recall it right now, and I like The Four Agreements for helping to figure out how to live ethically and assertively.

Always paying? Not cool.

I have a lot of covert aggressive people in my life. That was really interesting to read.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2013 09:35AM by cl2.

She sounds either immature or manipulative. Perhaps she is a bit of both.

Next time, consider asking for what you want instead of terming it a "sacrifice." For instance, I might say, "I've been coming to see you a lot. Next weekend, I'd like you to come and visit me." Or, "I've been picking up the check a lot lately. Are you able to pick up this one? I like it when women pay their own way at least some of the time." A girlfriend should be able to discuss these things without feeling picked upon. If she can't do that much, she's not ready for a long term relationship, much less marriage.

In terms of keeping a friendship going with her, I'm not sure that the communication between the two of you really justifies that. But it's your call, of course.

Yes, labeling things as a sacrifice implies that you are expecting the same from your partner. But if you do these sacrificial things without ever telling her that it is putting you out or inconvenient, not to mention that you expect the same, what she will perceive is your willingness to do these things in apparent happiness.
Get this twisted notion of sacrifice out of your vocabulary, and talk openly like grown ups do.

And that "testing" you said you were doing that you think skirts around being "true manipulation"? I'm sorry, but that is incredibly manipulative. How would you like to be covertly evaluated like that? To learn perhaps that you hadn't passed a "test" that you didn't even know you were taking. What if you were given this "test" on an off day, when you felt poorly or had received some bad news at work? You wouldn't have given the "test" your all, you would have failed because you didn't know it was a test!


I am very glad you have found a CODA meeting, and I hope you gain a lot of insight and growth from it.
I'm sure I sound harsh to those not used to speaking openly, but I have dealt with way too many manipulators of all shades and I have zero patience for it.

WinksWinks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And that "testing" you said you were doing that
> you think skirts around being "true manipulation"?
> I'm sorry, but that is incredibly manipulative.

You're right. It is manipulative. And I owned up to it with her. I apologized for doing that.

I have a lot to learn. It hurts to think I am really most of the problem.

As I keep communicating with her, I find myself back into the mode of feeling like I'm completely at fault for what happened. She makes subtle statements of blaming me when I bring up what I felt went wrong. Statements like: "I wish you would have told me that." or "I wanted to be unselfish toward you, but you never told me to do that."

I finally told her, I don't want to talk about it anymore.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2013 11:03AM by Jesux of Nazdaq.

I'm glad that we can see here the two sides: passive aggressive reactions to someone not ready to express clearly what their needs are...We have been raised as to obscure and hide our needs, waiting in silence for others to guess them. It takes a lot of sympathy from another person to read into our needs...Whe will it be acceptable that we are taught ways of expressing our needs, nicely but directly? with no shame?
In my personal experience, once I learned to say clearly: "what I need from the relationship is..." the other person either would be relieved and grateful for having this boulder removed, or would be upset by my directness and consider that unacceptable.
As we are all learning, people who recognize that they can't express their needs, and also that they use sneaky ways of making the other person bond with them by guilt, or obligation should be walking around with a sign saying: "Caution: I can't express what I feel or need, so it will confusing for you to deal with my own fog...I apologize for that, and promise to work on it." :)
Neil Warner
passiveaggressivehusband.com