This is my first time posting. I've used this site to help provide support and comfort as I dealt with the fallout from leaving Mormonism, but my situation has changed recently and I'm curious to know if anyone has every battled with some of the same dilemas that I'm currently facing.

I left the church back in October of 2008. I basically had what I can only refer to as a "breakdown". Looking back now I realize I was dealing with heavy amounts of Anxiety (church, career, kids, marriage, money - climb, climb climb) and I finally broke. I was working in the Investment industry at the time and I called in to work and just quit my job out of nowhere (my wife knew I was struggling with these overwhelming feelings of "stress" and "pressure", but me quitting my job was something she did not handle well, which I completely understand). Shortly after I resigned from my job I quickly fell into a very Dark Depression. My wife ended up leaving me and took our children (2 kids at that time) from Washington back to live with her parents in California (shortly before she left she informed me she was pregnant with our 3rd child). I also quit attending church within weeks after quitting my job. Basically my life imploded at that time.

We were separated for about a year and a half. I moved back out to Northern Utah to live with my parents and experienced the lowest lows of my life thus far. I was clinically depressed and needed help. During that time I eventually started seeing a psychiatrist (who I believe at one point may have even posted on this same forum). He was a "God sent" which is hilarious because at that time of my life (and for the last 4 and half years) I had not a shred of a belief in a God. This person helped me realize who I was inside and helped me "fly" so to speak. :)

I ended up moving back to California and started slowly rebuilding my life with my wife and (now) 3 beautiful daughters. However, last April my wife and I filed for Divorce. The Divorce was final this past December and I've been adjusting to my "new life" now for almost a year now. I've tried to reconcile several times with my ex-wife but she has basically stated that the only way she would ever take me back is if I returned to Mormonism.

I know a lot of what caused our Divorce is that I was "numb" for a long period of time due to my Depression. I built walls of "protection" around myself but this only resulted in pushing loved ones further and further away. I ultimately stopped loving my wife as I navigated thru the storms of these past 4 and half years or so. At one point she was even willing to embrace the fact that we could be happily married and still maintain our beliefs (her being Mormon and me being Athiest).

At first, I thought I would be ok with the Divorce, but I came to the realization that, although my feelings for her were masked during my own personal struggles with Depression, I still love and always have loved my wife. The heartache of losing her is suffocating at times. This heartache eventually brought me to my knees about 2 months ago and for the first time in almost 5 years I prayed. I felt love, I felt peace, and for the first time in a very very long time I opened my heart to the idea that maybe, just maybe there was a God. It sounds crazy and sometimes lately I feel like I'm on some pretty crazy drugs (which I'm not), but I truly do feel like a "higher power" has been re-introduced into my life.

My oldest daughter turned 8 and was baptized 3 weeks ago. To support her I attended the baptism. Since then I have started attending church again (3 consecutive Sundays now). My sole purpose of doing this is to show my ex-wife some type of "grand gesture" if you will that I could make our relationship work - that I could live "among" the Mormons and we could still embrace what each of us feels and believes. But I know in my heart she wants more than that, and I know I can't give that to her without sacrificing part of my character (I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror knowing what I know). I removed my name from the church records for a very real reason (I don't believe it is true), but yet here I am attending church meetings again as I try anything and everything I can to win back my family.

Sorry for the long winded rant, I just felt like throwing this out there to see if anyone has ever 110% left the Mormon church, only to come back (even if just in 'show') to keep his or her family?

Try this web site it is a support forum for people who do not believe in the mormon faith but stay connected for various reasons. http://www.newordermormon.org/

Thanks Wendybird.

That is really a big loss and you sound awfully nice to be trying so hard to hold your family together. Sorry the wife is so entrenched in the lifestyle that she cannot see your goodness of heart. I think maybe you are kind of banging your head against a brick wall with regard to your wife. Maybe your focus should be your daughters. Just being there for them, listening to them, guiding them through life's tough times will keep them close to you and just maybe (rather big maybe) show your wife what a great dad you are. She will never find anyone who cares as much about and loves unconditionally her children as you. If that doesn't mean anything to her I think you will just have to let her go. She sounds like she's deaf to reason and completely gaga for her religion. Anyone who can throw their marriage away for the sake of a church is pretty far gone.

Best wishes and I support you in whatever you feel you need to do as long as it's legal and doesn't destroy you in the process.

Thanks Cali Sally - I appreciate what you said and couldn't agree more that "She will never find anyone who cares as much about and loves unconditionally her children as you."

I love my kids to death and in the end, regardless of what happens with my ex-wife, I will always be there for my girls.

Thanks again for sharing.

Welcome, Foxbeard. I'm glad that you have started posting. I'm sorry that you are in a world of hurt. That's so very tough for you to have to deal with.

There are plenty of board members who don't believe but continue to attend for family reasons. However, I'm not sure if any of them have gone through a divorce and then tried to attend after that.

Based on what you shared, it sounds like you already made one attempt at reconciliation, and it didn't work. That makes me wonder if you are attached more to the idea of the marriage you would like to have had rather than the actual marriage.

As you know, one person can love another person a whole lot, but if the other person doesn't feel likewise than it's not going to work. And yeah, that bites. I'm sure that you realize this, but your wife's love is very conditional. Okay, she had a husband who was depressed. She had a husband who left the church. So freaking what? There are families who go through far worse traumas than that and manage to hold it together. She wanted her Peter Priesthood and her perfect life, and when that didn't happen, she bailed. What else would she bail on? Is this really the best you can do? Your average dog would have more loyalty to you than that.

Based on what you've shared, my advice would be to move on with your life. Get as much access to your kids as you possibly can, and model for them what a church-free life looks like. On weekends or vacations when you have them, do fun things on Sundays. Find a lovely non-Mo or exmo woman who shares your values.

Part of me wonders if depression is still a factor because you are mourning a relationship with someone who hasn't treated you well at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2013 07:24PM by summer.

Thanks for your words Summer.

My guess is you are not alone. There must be many who can ignore the belief system and claims and go along with the culture etc. to save their family.

Some might feel an obligation to keep the family together on some level as they may understand how the others in the family (a spouse for instance) feel abandoned, rejected, and betrayed. It happens.

I'm presuming from your "rant" that your ex-wife is not going to be satisfied with lip service or "going along to get along" but will only accept what she has determined is fitting for her: a true believing spouse that will do all that is required: including garments, temple attendance, tithing, callings etc.

I have written extensively on how I have concluded, through my decades of experience, and observations, and analysis that Mormonism manifests best as a generational, historical, patriarchal,cultural, familial, religious tribe. Leaving it is very difficult. Getting back in is even harder.

Maybe the best you can do now, is to support your family the best you can and let the divorce stand as it appears that you could not manufacture what your ex-wife demands.


"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
Friedrich Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2013 07:23PM by SusieQ#1.

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/Rudyard.K
> ipling.Quote.A32B


I found it under Nietzsche, guess he was quoting Kipling?
Hard to know about quotes. I found it here, and other places.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/f/friedrichn134044.html

I believe it wasn't Nietzche but it is 99 percent of the time attributed to him. He never used the word "tribe." Kipling on the other hand was very interested in the word.

Thanks SuzieQ! Very well said.

...and regardless of the source, I really liked the quote! It reminds me of another one of my favorites...

"Be yourself and think for yourself; and while your conclusions may not be infallible, they will be better than the conclusions forced upon you." ~ Elbert G. Hubbard

There is nothing wrong with choosing to be a New Order Mormon.

Some people are able to manage hearing Mormon sermons and knowing they are nonsense and exploitive and others cannot bear it. This is highly individual.

All you can do is find a niche that feels right for you and then do not apologize for it. Whether or not your wife can accept it is another story. You may choose to be in the pew to be with your daughters, to remain an influence in their lives with the idea in your mind that you will teach them to think critically.

Your mission may be to guide them from cult life into reality and keeping the connection going there at church is a buffer from the cult that would otherwise swallow them whole.

As long as you are doing it without putting forth a false persona, I don't see anything wrong with it. I sometimes go to the Catholic Church when I feel in need of sacred space and Lord knows I don't believe in the Lord any more.

Anagrammy

Thanks anagrammy,

You strike me as a very wise individual! I appreciate everything you shared and I like very much what you said about "finding a niche and not apologizing for it" as well as avoiding a "false persona". One of my biggest concerns as I sort thru all of these things is that I don't, I can't, lose who I've become. I know there are boundaries that I simply will not be able to cross and still be able to look myself in the mirror.

Thanks again for sharing.

My divorce was final in 2006. My kids were young. Years later, daughter #3 has left and now see the insanity of it all. It takes time, stay consistent with the children, and "keep the faith" for the sake of the children and I'm speaking of your faith in your temporarily deluded children.

I think Anagrammy is on the right track. (She usually is.) Whatever you choose to do make sure of a couple of things:

1. You aren't trying to go backwards because going forwards into the great unknown is terrifying.

2. You aren't confusing the "higher powers" re-entry into your life with a call back to mormonism. The "higher Power" works with non-mormons as well.

It is possible to truly love someone and yet not be your best self when you are in their presence. That's one of the great ironies and heartbreaks of life.

It's been my experience that after years of "molding" ourselves to fit another's expectations we end up angry and resentful at both them and ourselves. All any of us want is to be accepted, loved, and appreciated for who we are, as we are. However you find that for yourself, you will find support and affection for you here in this group of wonderful supportive people.

Thanks, I couldn't agree more about your comment regarding "higher powers" and a "call back to Mormonism". My recent "change of heart" so-to-speak has nothing to do with the Mormon church. I don't feel in any way, shape or form that those "good feelings" have anything to do with Mormonism, but rather the idea, the hope, that maybe, just maybe there is a "higher being" who loves us. In the end, who the hell knows really?! :) I'm just trying to hold on to the logic/reason/critical thinking that I'd denied myself for so long while at the same time realizing it is still ok to follow your heart.

You would have to live a lie to do it. Plenty of husbands posting on this forum have TBM wives. They hide their true nature and beliefs, attend church, hold callings . . . and come here to vent when the strain becomes too much.

They do it for various reasons: They love their wives and don't want to divorce; They love their children and don't want to be separated from them. They have professions within Mormon communities and can't risk their jobs by going apostate.

Then, there are plenty of guys who lose their testimonies, become athiests, divorce, and start all over again. They try to maintain part-time relationships with their children. Often, they fall in love again with someone on their own wavelength and live a sweeter, more authentic life. Some wallow in anguish and bitterness over the cards life has dealt them.

Almost every man who finds himself in your position asks, "What is best for my children?" Is it better to take a moral stand, leave the marriage, and be an influence for critcal thinking and independence? Is it immoral to stay with the family, stay with the kids, and implicitly endorse (by their very silence) the LDS church doctrines, beliefs and practices?

Do you want your girls to grow up with a solid Mormon foundation while you stand by helplessly, going along with a lifetime of deep indoctrination into the LDS faith?

Only you can answer these questions foxbeard. I'll give you the possibility that there is a God/Higher Power in a loving universe. I believe you genuinely felt an anwer to your sincere prayers. Simply add some logic and reasoning to the answers that you received and find a path that will work best for you.

I love my family. I can't imagine being without them. My husband and I also separated for nine months after I left the church. We reconciled just before the finalization of our divorce. Our religious views remain different. Sometimes it's hard. Sometimes it's good. (I think all marriages are really that way).

But I love my kids. And I love "US" as an intact family. I've explored the other options, but being together works best for me and my emotional health.

There is no right or wrong answer for the decisions you are trying to make. I've been on this forum for 8 years and I've seen a lot of men face the exact same dilemma as you. Just follow your heart, your mind, and your truth. Use all three to make the best possible decision you can for everyone in your family.

Best of luck to you foxbeard. You sound like a very caring father. I hope things turn around for you.

Love,
Shannon ;o)

P.S. For some reason, your post struck a chord with me. I apologize for the long response.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2013 08:04PM by shannon.

shannon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you want your girls to grow up with a solid
> Mormon foundation while you stand by helplessly,
> going along with a lifetime of deep indoctrination
> into the LDS faith?

You don't have to stand by helplessly if your wife can

Sometimes staying in the marriage affords a father the opportunity to plant the subltle seeds of dissent.

;o)

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You don't have to stand by helplessly if your wife
> can

sorry. Super annoying co-workwas working late ad well and wanted to look over my shoulder.

My daughters know where I stand and recently my eldest has been very interested in my beliefs and lack thereof. It may take a long time to counter the programming but I'm willing to try.

You don't have to be helpless if your wife wants you more than the morg. Good luck!

Wow, Shannon - Thank you.

No need to apologize, I so glad it "struck a chord" and you shared as much as you did. I really do appreciate it. You said a lot of incredible things that really hit home and that I could relate to.

"But I love my kids. And I love "US" as an intact family. I've explored the other options, but being together works best for me and my emotional health.

There is no right or wrong answer for the decisions you are trying to make... Just follow your heart, your mind, and your truth. Use all three to make the best possible decision you can for everyone in your family."

Beautifully said. I love "US" as an intact family. Couldn't have said it better myself. Whenever I am with the girls and their mother it just feels like "Home". I know that may be a "Home" I never return to though (at least not in the same way I'm currently hoping for).

Thanks Shannon.

I agree, he could become a new order mo, but it sounds like his wife only wants a true blue TBM. Based upon his activity, she will eventually sense the difference. It's too bad she won't meet him halfway. But maybe later on they can work out those details and make it happen. Good luck OP. I have suffered from depression since I was a teen so I know how you feel. It's really hard to get better when you don't feel physically or mentally well enough to battle it.

Thanks.

I can relate to your situation and saw myself in you as I read what you wrote. I understand the ache of wanting your family intact and back together, but if you choose to have your family back for those reasons only (while they are just) you will be doing yourself a great disservice in the long run. Stay true to yourself, you'll be happier for it.

Thanks -

If you haven't tried this already, start writing about your past relationship with your ex wife. This is something that worked for me. I was thinking about this person hourly. She didn't want anything to do with me anymore, and I was in pain and my life was miserable. I had to restrain myself for calling or emailing her. I didn't want to be that guy, the guy that can't let go and move on. Now, after about 50 pages and a year's time, I am in a much better place.

Write whenever the pain is bubbling to the surface. Be brutally honest, be tough on her and yourself, dig deep, go into detail, look for patterns. Don't worry about grammar or spelling. Password protect the file in a secure place.

Then occasionally go back and reread what you wrote. It is fair? It is honest? Do certain statements require qualifiers, like "sometimes" instead of "always".

What I discovered is that to get past an emotional trauma, I had to put in the time and do the work. It was well worth the effort. Good luck.

I completely agree. I've kept a "black book" for almost a year now and use it to literally dump my emotions. It helps to shed some heavy thoughts at times and going back and re-reading things from when I first moved out is pretty eye opening.

Thanks for sharing.

If you ever feel that you are re-connecting with god, just remember that it needn't be the "Mormon" god.

It's entirely possible that if there is a god -- that god may be just as disgusted with Mormonism as we exmos are.

The Universe is full of strange possibilities; you have a right to explore as you please. Mormonism doesn't own the copyright to spirituality.

Zip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you ever feel that you are re-connecting with
> god, just remember that it needn't be the "Mormon"
> god.
>
> It's entirely possible that if there is a god --
> that god may be just as disgusted with Mormonism
> as we exmos are.
>
> The Universe is full of strange possibilities; you
> have a right to explore as you please. Mormonism
> doesn't own the copyright to spirituality.

That's what I found. No reason to slam a door of hope.

Couldn't agree with you more.

I applaud you,after going through everything listed, for what you are doing for your family as I was the child of a very similar relationship. If I were you, I would show your above genuine letter to your wife and have an authentic discussion to where you might be able to proceed, both together and apart. If it is together, both Of you should communicate guidelines and compromises. If it feels right and comfortable to both of you, then that would be your answer. If not, the previous advice is good. You seem very honest in saying that the depression may have affected your marriage as she once was comfortable with where you each were. Depression is a beast and I'm glad you're on this side of it.
Good luck in your journey.

Great message. :) I definately am on the "other side" of it and I couldn't be more proud of myself for how far I've come and what I've been able to accomplish in that regard!

Thanks purelove.

fwiw

I traveled the same road and the tscc won.

If I could do it over I would go NOM

the cost is too great. All that be true to yourself lingo is finebut to those of us that lost marriages and children....
there is some middle ground and would take that path if we had
the chance to do over. We can be more influencial in the family rather than out.

Good luck ( cause prayer fails for me) luck doesn't, its usually 50/50.. and on the depression... I know where you are coming from.

To be a leader rather than the one standing by can be a very difficult learning process. Learn to love who you are now and how you think now; please don't let another individual rob you of being yourself. A good friend once told me that no matter how you try and meld yourself to another's expectations, you eventually have to go back to who you really are. Maybe you need time to find out who that is. By what you wrote, you are someone with heart. When you were sick and needed her most, she couldn't be there to weather it out. I'm not placing blame on her but just pointing out that she failed you too. Part of why you were depressed is that your world came crashing down and you were losing everything important to you.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2013 09:21PM by suckafoo.

Cultivate love in your life, make it a priority. You have some huge challenges, but what you want is love. Love can work to help meet all these challenges. Cultivate love yourself, do all you can to love others. You will find more and more love in your life. Love is helping me.

Will you suffer some times? Will you be sad, regretful, lonely at times? Yes.

But the increase of love will comfort you more and more, and good will come of it for all concerned. Regret can hurt, but love will heal all things.

Welcome, foxbeard. I'm so sorry for what you're going through. Sounds to me like you're experiencing situational depression; who wouldn't? I'm also divorced, and we divorced after 18 yrs together. There were times when I thought I'd lose my mind I missed him so much; however, I can remember quite clearly one evening as I stood by the mantel of the fireplace. The question came to me: would you go back to him if it would help your children? And the answer came swiftly: absolutely not. He had even once suggested, after our meeting for depositions at my atty's office, that, perhaps we might remarry after a couple of yrs, as our neighbors had done. Yet I saw that as nothing more than his decision to keep me on the string in case his gf didn't work out.

You sound like such a nice person; I'd say you have every right to miss and want to be a part of your children's lives. Yet, your wife is absolutely in control of the relationship. She knows it, she has no compunction about things remaining that way, and she doesn't seem (from what you've said) the least bit interested in YOUR feelings about a relationship with God or not. She's a well-indoctrinated LDS woman.

Have you tried dating non-Mormon women? You're obviously young with quite a lot to offer. You live in Cali now; there's a whole world of lovely women out there. You will always have your children in your life, no matter what else happens. You take part in their lives, and they will always know and love you for being their father. I was a very lonely married woman, and I'm sure my ex felt the same. There's nothing quite as sad as two people who are having to work at living together instead of doing it happily and with the intent of being together for life, whether they be married or not.

Don't let anyone guilt you about what you call your "breakdown." You actually made a very rational decision to save your sanity; climbing the ladder is also very lonely, esp. when you have a family. My ex traveled during our entire married, and he really didn't like traveling. Nor did he want to climb the corporate ladder; he was satisfied with staying in once place with his well-paying job, expense acct, and company vehicle. I'm not sure where you're at now, but at least you're in one place, you get to be involved in your children's lives, and you can go out and meet other women whenever you are ready. Your wife would need to make some major concessions before she would ever be ready to accept you again. And it doesn't sound as if she's ready. To walk away from you when you were at your lowest is, in my opinion, a vile and cowardly thing to do to you when you needed her most. And it certainly does not speak of love for one's spouse. And then to keep the pregnancy from you? Control control control. Will you ever measure up to her expectations unless she either has a personality transplant or a major change in belief about the church? Think about that, and go from there.

I wish you the best. I'm glad you're feeling peaceful about things, whether that feeling comes from bended knee or not. That's what life's about. I've worried about my 3 children and the church so much, and now one has left completely, the other is questioning seriously, and the other I've no doubt will follow suit with the questions given time. Sometimes as a parent, we just have to let go and allow life to run its course. Just make sure you keep in touch with your kids and let them know you love them (which I'm sure you do already). Don't tie yourself to a shrew (sorry, that's how I feel about her behavior) for the sake of your children. You may be their only voice of reason. All the best.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2013 12:32AM by ducky333.

My heart goes out to you. That's a lot of pain. I wish we could group together and help you. Eventually the pain lessens and you find new hopes and dreams. I was in a similar place back in 2006-2010.