Hi All!

I had the sad occasion yesterday to be contacted by a "family" member asking me to commit to not post anything negative about the church or my life for a month. Obviously I was utterly disgusted and told him so. He refuses to accept any negative emotion in his life or apparently mine. He was asking me to be inauthentic. I unfriended him today because he just went on and on and refused to respect any boundary. I refuse to be around people like that anymore. FB...makes me laugh...the whole point of it is to be able to control YOUR page or the page your create...not someone else's. But for a Mormon, there are no boundaries.

I had a 10 k bike ride to work today and as I was plunging pinot grapes and a few other duties, I realized something. I'm changing. Literally evolving. I'm not who I was as a tbm. I realize I was never allowed to be who I was during that time, but what I'm becoming is much stronger than anything I have ever known. Before my journey out of Mormonism, I was so concerned with others feelings. I'd take their feelings into account before mine because I thought I had this magical regenerating pool of energy from which to draw from. (Actually I thought Jesus was supposed to be refilling it since I was doing his damn work, but I digress)...it wasn't until I lost everything, my strength, my power, my finances, my belief in myself, my roof over my head that I finally got in touch with that well of mine and really saw how it worked. I saw that I'm the one filling it up, but if I'm emptying it on other people faster than I can fill it, then I'm running in deficit and that is when I felt so weak mentally and physically. It wasn't until I got completely away from family, all things TBM and was around normal people who treated me like a fellow Earth Citizen and not that damn upstaging thing the tbm's do, that I began to learn who to hang around, and who not to. I learned that I don't have to save anyone, don't even have to make anyone smile, don't have to "spread sunshine", or "put my shoulder to anyone's wheel". I could just be with me no matter how I felt. I'm still learning this but what I've discovered is that the "me" in me feels horribly neglected and afraid that I'll abandon her again and worry about everyone else but her. It breaks my heart actually to see her pain and how much she longs to be with me. I can't look at her and tell her "I only want to see you smile, hide your tears from me, I'm not interested". It's offensive and rude. If I'm really going to live within myself, and trust myself, and honestly love myself, then I have to be willing to listen to everything and take real action to change things that hurt her/me. It's like a real, honest, authentic realatinship, except the other person is...myself.

I love me, not just with disposable words, but fully, and I'm past the age where I'm willing to let someone emotinally vomit on me and I'll just assume I have enough energy to cover the defecit and I'll be "ok". No, I won't be ok. It could take days to recover that precious energy. I am my own protector, my own Warrior Princess and I'm delighted that I'm growing into that role.

Btw, for those of you who don't know that the WoW was very rarely practiced in the church, especially in SLC, here is a bit of info for you...(From Mormonism: Shadow or Reality page 411...

"In footnote 29 on page 251 of A Mormon Chronicle, Vl 2 this interesting informaotion is given: 'At Brigham Young's sugestion, Neagal went east...In 1865 he was called upon to take charge of the wine-making industry at Toquerville. Here he raised many varietiesof grapes, improted a wine press from California, and soon became the largest wine producer in the intermountain area His large stone house with the winve-cellar basement still stands in Toquerville.' In his book, Desrt satins, Nels Anderson gives this information:


Wine making. was another Mormon enterpirse that beame to the same end as the cotton, iron and silk missions. The St. Geoure Tithing Office reported on March 1887, a supply of 6,610 galons of wine, valued at 50 cents per gallon'

It goes on to state that part of the wages to the men who built the Manti temple were paid from wine sales.

(I'm currently working in a winery and this hit close to home. The church today is NOTHING like the church of old.)

That includes worrying about a couple of typos. They're not a problem here.

"In footnote 29 on page 251 of A Mormon Chronicle, Vol 2 this interesting information is given: 'At Brigham Young's suggestion, Neagal went East...In 1865 he was called upon to take charge of the wine-making industry at Toquerville. Here he raised many varieties of grapes, imported a wine press from California, and soon became the largest wine producer in the intermountain are. His large stone house with the wine-cellar basement still stands in Toquerville.' In his book, Desert saints, Nels Anderson gives this information:

Wine making was another Mormon enterprise that came to the same end as the cotton, iron and silk missions. The St. George Tithing Office reported on March 1887, a supply of 6,610 galons of wine, valued at 50 cents per gallon'

It goes on to state that part of the wages to the men who built the Manti temple were paid from wine sales.

Yeah, as soon as you start looking, the church is 99% bullshit. Good for you, posting what you like. I've done the same on my wall. Go ahead, unfriend me.

Yes, and the other 1% is plain horseshit.

I love how u describe yourself as another person.....i am/have thought the same thing about my inner child. i am so scared of not incorporating her now that i have said f*k it to other peoples needs first that i have completely shut that side down....n now feel like an empty shell. my whole life has been pleaseing others....i have poured out my last drop of true emotion i am not sure i will ever feel wonder, awe, love of life. how do yoy recover from this???

First off, welcome, I haven't seen you before here.

Second of all, from your name you have a wonderful sense of humor, tap into that that is real.

From my experience, when you feel that inevitable feeling of emptiness, remember, your true self is always there, waiting. When you do things and push onward in ways that you don't think is possible, it's because of her/him. I've learned that you only feel empty when you aren't ready to really get in touch with yourself. Your true self protects itself. She/he has perfect boundaries. She/he won't lie. If you have been pleasing others for such a long time, your true self has probably been neglected and abandoned. When your actions prove to her that she/he is your top priority, she/he comes out...you two are once again one. When you stop buying into other people's crap and drama and honestly take care of you as if you were your best friend, most loving partner, when you are willing to undo all the crap that created this wall between the two of you to begin with, she will emerge and you'll feel that connection.

The easiest thing to do is...do what you like. Follow up on your interests. If you are in bad marriage get out. If you need to free yourself from Mormonism more, read, study, get out. If you need to change jobs...do it. Don't torture your real self, that is what creates the "emptiness". Nurture and follow your inner instinct. And...when people hurt and abuse you, get out and get away. You'll know when you need to fight and when you need to flee.

Be you. That person the church hated and tried to destroy by endless guilt and mass meetings. She/he is still there desperate for your attention and love. Once you start and feel her/him again...you'll never let go and never let someone steal her/him away from you ever again.

Thank u Lori C! i have been out of church for a very long time...but still am the same pleser personality that landed me there as a late teen convert. still muddling along...trying to figure myself out... im still kinda mystified because i am a lot more assertive than i was, stopped trying to please family (they still love me and most are nevrmo) now they just call me contrary! Lol.... but boy do i suk the big one ( mind outta the gutter!) with male/female long term relationships and boundries... anyway, thank you for the very kind words and advice...they touched my heart...guess it still is there!

Excellent post, Lori! This is such good advice! I had to go to a shrink to understand that I was neglecting and hating myself. (I'm no sinner, I'm just not perfect.)

Dear Garlictoast, you will recover! Keep reading RFM. We have all been through very similar experiences. Caring for yourself takes concentrated work, but, actually, it can be fun.

Completely lost, I began with the simple things: throwing out all my LDS books and Mormon memorabilia, putting my garments in the garbage and wearing different clothes, eating health foods and ethnic foods, playing different music, having fun on Sundays, trying new things, etc.

I took a closer look at my Mormon "friends," who were shunning me because I resigned from the cult. I had to cut quite a few people out of my life, including some Mormon family members who were abusive.

There is a good thread about victims of abuse, and submissive people like you and me, who try too hard to please others, are easy targets to be used by other people, and used by a cult. I felt that I was "shut down" and not myself, when I was a member.

We can spread sunshine about how great it is to be free of the Mormon church. I've worked on this for almost 8 years.

My favorite part:

"I'm past the age where I'm willing to let someone emotinally vomit on me and I'll just assume I have enough energy to cover the defecit and I'll be "ok". No, I won't be ok. It could take days to recover that precious energy."

Amen, and hallelujah!

These are the kinds of things I, and so many others, need to hear, again, abd again, in different ways w/ different words.
I am at yet another precipice/crucible & am just drinking in all the (esp female, no offnse to anyone, it's just a different experience) wisdom & conscousness.

You'll realize how exhausted and unfulfilled you are and how when you stay away from the church and the endless meetings...you start to reconnect with yourself and feel whole again. They know this...hence the guilt and the family pressure. It's all intentional.

What you said gets to the heart of the Mormon BS. This reminds me of something that my TBM parents frequently told me as I was growing up -- BE NICE!. I was always supposed to BE NICE, no matter what the situation or circumstances. After I quit Mormonism at age 17 it took me a few years to retool my thinking to fit the real world.

People will not always BE NICE to me. Actually I am lucky if that happens 50% of the time. The other 50% people will be mean, nasty, condescending, or snarky. They will lie to me, cheat me, or try to steal from me. And in situations like that it is appropriate for me to tell them to go [expletive] themselves. So now I tailor my response to people in a way that fits the situation. Sometimes I will be nice, but when appropriate I will be very un-nice. That is what it takes to live successfully in the real world.

"I love me, not just with disposable words, but fully."

I think this is the first sign of mental and spiritual detoxing.

Hey, no need to be fake anymore, right? It's a grand payoff when leaving Mormonism. No makey-fakey. Good luck, and enjoy!

Once I let go of my TBM self and became my authenic self, everything got better. My family-husband and relationship with the kids improved and was better than it already was. But the biggest difference, is I developed real friendships. These friendships have sustained me through some pretty rough times in a way TBMs never could. Sometimes you just need someone to say, "This really sucks" and not try to rationalize it or attach greater meaning or reminders that it was "meant to be" etc.
Anyway, glad to hear things are looking bright. Enjoy your journey!

Being the good girl, being the nice girl, is overrated. Seriously, is that something men worry about to excess? Being good, being nice? It's like society wants women to permanently carve off a piece of ourselves.

It took me many years to get comfortable with the notion that being a grown-up, rounded woman doesn't always mean being nice. You can be a decent human being and still speak up for yourself, be assertive when necessary, and fight for what is right.

Me, neither. This is a great thread. Thanks, Lori C! :)

You've arrived at the place where you can now give yourself all the love you always wanted, needed, and deserved.

The good part is, you don't have to depend on anyone else to give it to you. You can love yourself to your hearts content.

Funny things happen. People who can love you in a healthy way will start showing up when you least expect it.

Beautiful post Lori. Thank you!

Thanks Lori for this post. It means a lot to me.
I love how you can see your transformation.
I had a similar experience when I after seeing the title of a book I was waiting for the bus and asked myself if I could live through finding out that there were no HF and Jesus. For example, if someone came to me and proved that there was no God no Jesus. The idea in the beginning was kind of 'scary' to me but I realized that I would be all right. That I would only need a time to readjust and I'd be ok. That notion, just made me feel like I had transformed and in a way 'evolved'.
It was an amazing realization about my-self.

You had me at "Pinot".

I love this post!! People-pleasing is something I have struggled with for many years. It took me going through a process of eliminating what I don't want (for about ten years) to now trying to define what it is that I do want. It was so ingrained in me to do what everyone else wants first then having nothing left for myself. (no money, no time, no energy) It can still be a struggle, but it's much easier to recognize and correct now before things get out of hand. Thank you for the affirmation that we are all moving in the right direction!

I love this line:
...but what I'm becoming is much stronger than anything I have ever known."

This gives me chills. Look at the power you have discovered within yourself!

And this:

"I am my own protector, my own Warrior Princess and I'm delighted that I'm growing into that role."

To find this within yourself is so empowering. You are obviously a very strong person- and now you have discovered the depths of it!

LOL, but they way..."you had me at Pinot"...priceless!

When I first allowed myself to admit there was no HF and Jesus, it was scary for about 20 seconds if that. But then it was better and "ok" so quickly and realized how much happier I was with no gods at all.

One thing I find particulary abusive in religion is this notion of a "faith" in god/gods/their doctrine. It is like a really, really abusive relationship and for YEARS has colored my own percptions and behavior.. here's how...

When you are talking to someone...(prayer) and they ignore you...(absence of a real voice conversing back with you), it is abandonment, neglect, rejection. Because you've just poured your soul out to someone who you were promised "loved you" and "cared about you" and "knew you"...and then he ignored you and dismissed you and all your concerns.

This behavior is no different than an abusive partner where you give and give, get hit or ignored and then really hope something will change in the future if only you can somehow figure out what is wrong with you to make him treat you this way.

This "faith" that one day god/Jesus will physically come back and "take care of us" and stop ignoring us literally keeps people on thier knees and paying millions of dollars to corrupt organizations masking as churches. Why is that "one day" can't be today? Why is god such a waste of space and a constant "no show"?

I'm tired of allowing myself to feel like right now is so worthless because my dead beat dad (aka HF) can't get off his butt and be my "eternal father" and actually be a real presence in my life. No more internalizing some broken mechanism in me because he is an imaginary figure.

Others don't get to decide your boundaries for you, Lori. Your "friend" can decide he's not going to say or do anything negative, but that doesn't mean he gets to censor *you.* He can just ignore what he doesn't want to read.

To make the challenge fair, did you ask him not to say or post anything related to positive things about TSCC? That would make the deal fair you know.

You did well. You're doing well. I have a yes complex, so I somewhat understand the imbalance of giving/receiving. You see that you are drained by putting feelings before your own, but it's hard to break the habit.The good news is you're on your way to a better life and being a more authentic person. It's a huge burden off your shoulders, even as it creates challenges with old friends and aqcuaintences. Way to go! :-)

Fantastic post, Lori!