According to this Newsroom article....

Elder Ballard, accompanied by Elder Ronald A. Rasband of the Quorum of the Seventy, met with thousands of Church members and missionaries in Germany, Belgium, Switzerland and Italy.

“The respect and the wonderful reception that we received from every member of the Church we met and from the faithful, wonderful missionaries was the highlight of the visit,” Elder Ballard said.

When asked to describe Church membership in Europe, Elder Rasband responded with one word: resurgent. He attributes this energy to the younger generation introducing others to the Church. Elder Rasband says membership there is anything but stagnant, adding, “There’s a real excitement in Europe.

(http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/apostles-travel-the-world-in-response-to-growing-church-membership)

Are there any other europeans that can sense this? I certainly can't in southern England!


BTW, it's interesting that the article also mentions a visit to certain Roman Catholic leaders in the Vatican, including the 'rottweiler defender of doctrine' post that the current Pope previously held. Are they comparing notes on how to run a 'strengthening the members committee'?

I haven't been to church for about three years, but until then I was quite familiar with the church in several European countries from Holland and Belgium to Spain and Portugal and I assure you most converts are immigrants, usually illegal immigrants, who do not stay in the area for long, and certainly don't stay in the church for long. They are dependent, uneducated, low-skilled workers in odd jobs, not wealthy enough to raise a family (though they usually have more kids than anyone else), not stable and secure enough to settle down...

In other words, they are not baptizing future leaders. I've seen wards that were 90% Latin American immigrants, and not one immigrant would be useful as a bishop, RS prez, or music leader.

Since this may sound racist I'd like to point out that my mother was East German, my father South American and I've always lived in a countries where I was a foreigner myself. And I see lots of successful Ecuadoreans, Nigerians and Bangladeshis here. They just don't seem to become mormons. So I don't blame the immigrants, I blame the church.

Heck, it wasn't exactly Europe's finest that moved to Zion in the 19th century, was it?

He was living there at the time. I was still active, he was waning. At the time I was sort of hoping he'd go to church and make contacts because he was new in the city. Anyway, short story is that there were only a couple of Italians visible, and the rest were mostly Argentine. An Italian I was talking to said that it was absurd to have all the South Americans there running things as if they were Italians. So on the one hand, the Italians that were left resented all the immigrants, and on the other hand could not have survived without them, or so it appeared.

... from the Rocky Mountains!

TSCC always speaks the local language, but it's still a Utah church.

I was in Europe for 5 weeks this summer - my first trip there. I have nothing to do with TSCC anymore, but I was pleased that during my travels through major cities in 14 different countries, I never saw a single missionary, LDS chapel, or temple. If there is a big mormon presence in Europe it hides itself well.

In fact the only reference to Mormons the whole trip was when our tour director told a funny story about taking a group of Mormons around Europe and they all wanted to eat dinner at 5:00 every night and then go to bed. He obviously thought they'd have been better off staying in Utah.

I certainly don't see it. I don't see growth,anywhere in Europe, just 'consolidation'.

Immigrants, AFAIK. Most of them won't stay long.

It wasn't Europe's finest that moved to Zion in any century! Mayflower descendants love to rub their ancient superiority in the noses of other Americans. I guess it's all too easy to forget that their ancestors were the 16th - 17th c. version of fundamentalist white trash and that good King James II invited them to get the hell out of his kingdom or be thrown out.

where Bill Murray says "Men, we are Americans. Do you know what that means? It means our ancestors were kicked out of every civilized country in Europe."

Even as a Mayflower descendant myself, I thought that was hysterical.

and when I left the only converts were immigrants from Eastern Europe and African countries. There was the odd move-in that then moved on, a couple of rugby players from Tonga and the islands and their families (common here up North). Other than that, I saw decline and disinterest amongst the youth increasing at a pace.

All the local churches advertise their activities in the local newspapers but I've seen nothing announced from LDS. I expect the projected impact isn't worth the advert fee.

Now they've closed the Central office I understand.

Briggy

brigantia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and when I left the only converts were immigrants
> from Eastern Europe and African countries. There
> was the odd move-in that then moved on, a couple
> of rugby players from Tonga and the islands and
> their families (common here up North). Other than
> that, I saw decline and disinterest amongst the
> youth increasing at a pace.
>
> All the local churches advertise their activities
> in the local newspapers but I've seen nothing
> announced from LDS. I expect the projected impact
> isn't worth the advert fee.
>
> Now they've closed the Central office I
> understand.
>
> Briggy

Sounds like consolidation of a poor situation, not a resurgence!

A friend was in Berlin a few weeks ago, and attended an LDS church. Yes, a bit of increase, but all non Germans.

Not that long ago my nephew finished his mission. He had been in Germany. He admitted to me that he hadn't baptized anyone in the whole two years, and that baptisms were really quite rare in his mission.

Sounds like Ballard is just putting a spin on a really pathetic situation.

Yup, just spin for the core audience. Wait for the numbers. If there is such an increase, why have they closed so many missions and pulled so many missionaries?

Until about 6 months ago I worked across the street from a morg chapel in Fife, and the sunday attendance was poor and got worse as time passed.

In all the time I worked there I only saw mishies twice and both times they were tracting without any success whatsoever.

There were a few members around where I live but the morg has managed to drive them away with the control freakery!

In the 27 years I've lived here, I've only met one Mormon (a missionary) and that was in the mid 90s.

I see quite a few JWs but no Mormons.

I never even saw Elizabeth Smart while she was in Pariis ;(

I ran into a pair of elders in Salzburg in March and a few days later I nearly bumped into a pair of sisters. I didn't post about it, but I felt sad for the sisters; they looked so out of place in their long, unflattering skirts and wistful expressions.

More recently, I passed a pair of elders sitting on a park bench in Prague, talking to a prospect, handing him a BoM. I felt like stopping to tell the kid they were prospecting that if he joined that cult, he'd have to shave his beard, cut his hair and ditch the earring. I nearly went bakd to to it.

But I didn't. He hadn't taken the BoM anyway; they were shoving it toward him.

But for all those encounters, I've never seen a chapel or any sign of an actual congregation in Austria nor in Prague.

Several years ago, I was staying with my daughter in Vienna and she was contacted by a pair of sister missionaries via the intercom at the front door of her apartment building. My daughter claimed that she was not the person they were looking for (when in fact she was and she was not happy about being found by the morg!).

So they slinked away, rather unhappy. I saw the pair a few times in town, riding the trams. They both looked absolutely miserable. Not the picture of success at all.

So sad that the couldn't at least enjoy the sites. I hope that at some point they did. I like hearing on here about missionaries that had a great time in Europe (or Asia, or wherever) whether or not they were truly TBM at the time.

I'm glad to hear no one else is convinced that Europe is seeing a resurgence. The immigrant situation is the same as in the U.S. People feel really confused and lost when they first come to a new country (along with any financial and language difficulties) so having what seems to be a loving community welcome them is always tempting . . . for a while. I feel badly for them, especially if they pay tithing. And of course the feeling of acceptance and equality will only last as long as they work and pay (and might end even with that).

Keep dreamin' till you have to wake up to no one to tell your LDS BS spin stories to.

Yea and I'm the Sadukar Emperor

I live in Spain, concretely Catalonia. Almost all are immigrants from South America and Africa. I know that in the Basque Country hardly any Basques join the TSCC at all. The Church hierarchy despises the local languages and only cares about numbers. Why should a Catalan or Basque be a Mormon, pay tithing, go to absurd meetings, sing strange American hymns in a language that they have never prayed to God in? And this at a time when hardly anyone believes in Catholicism or any form of religious myths anymore. Hell, the mishies can get a BOM to an Arab, Romanian, or Ethiopian but not one in Galician or Basque! That really goes down like a lead balloon there! If this were not enough, Mormon missionaries are viewed as painfully obvious purveyors of a weird cult. Mormons are also thought to be ultra right-wingers although this is not always the case in Spain, of course. Nope, no self-respecting Catalan, Basque, indeed any Spaniard is interested in joining the Church today, hence the usual marginalized groups being the only ones joining. Proof of this is the dismantling of the Bilbao Spain Mission. Stupid cult!

From where I am in the UK there's certainly no 'resurgence'. Maybe resurgence means something different to Rasband.Like 'visibly withering away' perhaps. The ward we stopped attending has had a few child baptisms and one adult one in the last two years (still getting emails unfortunately). In no way replaces just our family members who left - five of us in that ward and four in another. We were also in leadership positions. The one adult they baptised has learning difficulties, I spotted him and his wife with the RS Pres not long after the much trumpeted baptism, RS Pres had just taken them shopping in Sainsbury and they were heading into a DIY store. Cheered me up to see someone getting something out of the church.

The ward my husband attended as a new member was closed down and the members dispersed to different wards and branches. The was in the last five years, so they may have resurged since. Somehow I don't think so though.

that I remember. Baptise a guy on Sunday and during the next couple of weeks he is made bishop. Ah - sweet memories of cosy parlour meetings with the 'new' bishop, consulting his handbook, finding his way through the teachings along with the rest of us.

We could pretty much run the branch our own way until an American was shipped out to us to pull us into line, sorting the wheat from the chaff? Well - there were some revolving door members in those days and we thought we were 'special' for hanging in there. Oh dear, if only we'd known.

Church was fun back then though.

Briggy

Well, Briggy, my ex ward was/is at least 80% American, so we had a constant stream of,mostly, utah americans telling us how it was really done. During the thirty years I was in the ward the british members dwindled and dwindled, people often leaving because they felt so alienated by a ward leadership which shipped in the US way of doing things with absolutely no regard for the local culture. After all they came from the land blessed above all other.

Sadly in the end it left a really nasty taste in the mouth regarding America. I got over that though, I now have two American in-laws.

were it not to encourage LDS serving folks into church. Now and then we'd get a few, who came and went. Now the base is closed and has become a WWII museum so the local ward is, I understand, led by imports from a neighbouring ward, where there is one British convert family that has risen to the dizzy heights and runs almost everything, for a decreasing membership.

It is, a rinky dinky, niche organisation that rises and falls with the seasons.

When I visited the US I remember overhearing a comment that I wasn't 'church broke' yet.

Briggy

If the USAF bases near us were to close the local ward would go from around 200 active members to less than twenty. Most of those are well over sixty. Bodes well for the future doesn't it.

Not Aviano, though I have known a few who have been stationed there.

The LDS church isnt growing in most of europe, with the exceptions of Slovakia, Portugal (this year baptisms have suddenly surged + a temple announcement) and the UK. All of former yugoslavia has been opened up for missionary work, I befriended a serbian convert online who says his ward is growing.

Although comments regarding "decline in the uk" are circling here that isnt true, the birthrate is very high (can count at least 30 new members in my ward alone being through birth), and they still pull in about 4000+ converts per year. Experiencing an english ward, they arent "all immigrants", which is quite a narrow viewpoint to take. Fair enough, my ward has saw 4 baptisms this year, held on to just 2 of them, and held onto 4 converts out of about 7 the prior year.

However, the rest of europe I cannot even agree with the church. The reason behind the lack of growth is not because of "internet access" or "freaky views on the church" it is down primarly to socio-economic change. Although americans are unfamilar with this, european countries have been governed a lot by moderate socialist parties since the end of WW2. moderate socialist parties reduce the influence of christianity in the state and remove religious values from centers of social influence (i.e. education), this has lead to a deep slump in members and growth of all christian denominations in most european countries. Economic growth in these social trends, discourages people from religion.

The church of england is evaporating, as are methodists, baptists, etc, likewise. The LDS church survives because of its secular differences from mainstream churches and its ability in the UK to keep pulling in new converts whilst maintain a high birthrate. Most english people dont know or care much about LDS to dislike it (unlike the U.S) which again makes some people more easy for missionaries to grab.

The church of england has neither a birthrate nor missionary force, to state example. Compare this with similar trends in other european nations and you see why europe is dead in terms of christian religions.

TSCC is definitely not growing in the UK.

Your experience of an english ward is just that, an english ward and not the church as a whole in the UK.

Let me cite another ward namely Riverside in Coventry, where a huge number of recent converts ARE immigrants.

My old Birmingham ward has lost 50% of it`s members in a little over 5 years. The outgoing bishop was known as the bishop who lost half his ward. (60 lost members)

Solihull ward had to return to the B`ham stake to bolster flagging numbers.

Local missionaries don`t seem to knock doors much at all now and seem to largely rely on activating. One member of 50 years standing said that`s all we seem to hear now, activation, activation, activation.

I am still in contact with some members and no-one seems to agree that the church is growing in the UK and that includes church employees of some standing.

They`ve reduced the church office staff, in Solihull, to a shell and now they`re closing down the distribution centre in Garrettts Green.

Approx. 180,000 UK members..80,000 are "lost sheep"..35/40,000 are `active`(attending at least one meeting a month)

TSCC IS NOT GROWING IN THE UK.

Actually I have experience of several wards, and to expand on my comments I ressure you the church is growing in the UK.

Just because all not converts all retained does not change that. Some still are and that's what counts, as does an incredibly high birthrate. I use the simple economic rule in regards to birthrate that should parents of a particular group have more than 2 children on average than the total number of the next generation is double that of the proceeding one, and so forth if the rate keeps at that. As a huge number of LDS adults I know in England have 2, 3, 4, 5+ kids, its quite clear to see how the church booms through birthrate, and the past evidence to prove is also there from the past 40 years.

And just because some converts are "immigrants" does not make them any less of people than "natives" may I point out, its not fair to use the term in a negative sense.

To add, the correct active number of LDS in england is 52,000.

as quoted in the Times online (April 2010) state that the number of active LDS members in the UK is 185,000, I hardly think that 52,000 actual active members counts as a growth in members.