Hi, I am an excommunicated member who left the church to imbibe in some of the worldly customs such as drinking and smoking, of which I have since stopped. I am a transgendered woman, who believes in the LDS faith, but not the people. According to the scriptures, there is no scripture that denies nor condones transgendered individuals/intersexed individuals. I am intersexed with Klinefelter's Syndrome born with XXY in my sex chromosomes. For the past 3 years, I have been attending church and staying pretty much to myself. I have found, however, that when someone in the church finds out about me, it spreads like wildfire, even though it is spoken in confidence. How can these people do this when they profess to be true disciples of Christ? They have treated me well, but I have not been able to stay in the same location very long due to income (none), due to our economy. I have asked for help, financially, and yet, I am denied as they think I can work, yet, I am disabled. All I want to do is live my life as normally as possible, and try and fit into society. My life has been through hell in the last 7 years. No job, no income, and having been homeless. All because people, who are "Christian" refuse to assist those less fortunate. I ask for help in getting work, that I can do, and other things needed, and have been denied. This needs to be addressed by the church and by the membership. The scriptures say that if someone is repentant, sincere in heart, and willing to be baptized, are to be joined in the church, yet when someone is repentant and desirous to return to the church, they make it a living hell for them to return.

Anyway, the "policies of the church" say that a transgendered individual having had surgery, is not to be rebaptized. This is not doctrine, but policy. Policies are very different. This needs to be looked at as well.

Thank you for letting me vent.

I guess you could always write BKP and ask him for advice. I don't think he'd give you any that would help your situation though.

Boyd K.K.K.Packer isn't a mouthpiece for god. He's a con-artist.

And he knows there's one born every day.

Timothy

Even if there are no specific scriptures about transgender people most Mormons cannot wrap their heads around a person like you. The church teaches them that there are only two genders, male and female. Mormons are taught that their spirits were created male or female. They have strict gender roles. Males get the priesthood, lead the church and have jobs while women stay home and have babies. Plus they believe women can only have sex with men and vice versa. So what do they do in your case? Give you the priesthood or tell you your place is in the home? Should you marry a man or a woman? And whichever you choose will it be gay sex? See, you do not fit in their reality. People like you do not exist in their reality. If you do then they tell themselves you must have somehow chosen to be that way. I suggest finding a church that is more accepting of transgender individuals. You will never find acceptance in the Mormon church.

This book is not available to members, only leaders.

Page 144
If you want to be baptized and you have had an elective transgender operation, you must be interviewed by the mission president, who must get specific authorization from the 1st presidency. (same as those who have committed murder, practiced polygamy or are on parole or probation.)
Page 146
A person who is considering an elective trans sexual operation may not be baptized or confirmed. Baptism and confirmation of a person who as already undergone an elective transsexual operation require the approval of the 1st presidency. The mission president may request this approval if he has interviewed the person, found him or her to be otherwise worthy, and can recommend baptism. However, such person may not receive the priesthood or a temple recommend.
page 148
Members who have undergone an elective transsexual operation may not receive the priesthood.
Page 57
Church leaders counsel against elective transsexual operations. If a member is contemplating such an operation, a presiding officer informs hi of this counsel and advices thim that the operation may be cause for formal Church discipline. Bishops refer questions on specific cases to the stake president. The stake president may direct questions to the office of the 1st presidency if necessary.
Page 69
Fellowshipping after discipline.
A person disfellowshipped or excommunicated for an elective transsexual operation, they require permission from the 1st presidency to be reinstated to full fellowship or re baptism.
page 13
A member who has undergone an elective transsexual operation may not receive a temple recommend.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2011 01:05AM by Heresy.

Why should someone be treated the same as a murderer for a genetic condition they had no control over? God made them that way, why should they feel like they have to change to fit the limited gender roles of closed minded people who are unwilling to recognize that reality is more complex than their limited dogma?

It may not apply in 'sariahleah's' case. It is a congenital condition.

This is a case of ambiguous gender, not a case of someone willfully changing their gender.

This section of the CHI is to help local Church leaders deal with instances where a man or a woman choose to change their sex.

This instance is a person who has been born both a man AND a woman. For advice on the condition only a qualified medical practitioner should be consulted, not the Bishop.

For theological matters, the Bishop, the Stake President and other local leaders will be totally unqualified (not their fault) to advise or make decisions. This would be an instance for the First Presidency to give advice on how to help this individual with their membership of the Church.

As for the gossiping, shunning members that this person has encountered, well shame on them.

He said he would have the patriarch give them their PB and see which gender he says they are based on the things he reveals in the blessing.

I think I'd ask a medical doctor before I'd as a Patriarch. Good grief

Sorry friend, the LDS people are just a Christian subculture, misled by myths and propaganda into living in fear.
Any population will act that way when misinformed.
The problem is that the church is NOT TRUE.
There's no Spirit of Christ, no Holy Ghost, no priesthood.
Just fear, insecurity, ignorance, and propaganda from fake prophets and apostles who are nothing but a corporate board acting for the benefit of the company. The scriptures are man-made fiction.
The Mormon people make ALLOT more sense when you admit this.
You need an academic environment where you're not pitied, not feared, where your talents matter by themselves, where you're equal, with the same human dignity as everyone else.
Have you tried a liberal college?

LDS is not a subculture of Christianity. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian faith.

The handbook of instructions for church leaders is available on the internet (or it was awhile back...). The policies they have will have subsections for the following groups of people:

for young men

for young women

for transgender people
*pre op
*post op

for someone who ever arranged, participated in, or funded an abortion

for gay people

If you have any kind of transgender surgery you aren't allowed to get sacrament anymore, and there are a couple other things that they forbid after surgery. if you are before surgery everything in the handbook says to advise against surgery and for counseling, despite how evidence based medicine shows that it is completely ineffective to try and change a person in that way.

I would advise you to get the hell away from church people, for your own safety. The laws and society don't care as much as they should about trans people yet and so if you get hurt by people there isn't much recourse.

If you believe in the religion but not the people, why even go to church? If you need to worship do it in a way that doesn't put you at risk for violence. People who don't keep your status in confidence put you at risk, and are generally just jerks for passing around information that you don't want passed around. The gay community has a lot more support for people who are trans, that may be a good place to start.

>
> If you have any kind of transgender surgery you
> aren't allowed to get sacrament anymore, and there
> are a couple other things that they forbid after
> surgery. if you are before surgery everything in
> the handbook says to advise against surgery and
> for counseling, despite how evidence based
> medicine shows that it is completely ineffective
> to try and change a person in that way.
>

What if the surgery was done when the person was an infant?
What if the parents made the wrong gender choice?

The problem is the doctrine puts a trans person in limbo. They are not fully male in the eyes of the church and they are not fully female, but they aren't allowed to physically change their body to fit the gender they feel they identify with the most. They can never feel fully a part of the church or partake in a temple marriage. They have to wait until the resurrection to figure out which gender their eternal body be.

Sariahleah, I sympathise with your situation, but, if I were you, I would take a long look at this church and then turn around and walk away from it. You will not find what you want there.

Personally, I am an atheist, but I recognise that does not suit everyone......... I do know that there are many christian churches which are accepting of transgender people, where you will feel a whole lot more accepted and respected than the LD$ corporation

Agree that a different church would be more accepting. But if being treated like that. Spacegod from Kolob. Curses of skins of darkness. And peepstones are your thing then go for it

How are people in the church finding out about your condition? You have to realize that there's no real privacy in the church. In the future, if I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to share information. If necessary, just say that you are disabled due to a birth defect or a genetic condition.

Just because someone (even a bishop) asks a question does not mean you have to answer it. You can respond in a general way or not at all.

I would not look to the church to assist you. Instead, investigate community resources for disabled citizens. My community offers subsidized housing, employment assistance, and other services.

You didn't ask, but there are other Christian denominations that are far more friendly to transgendered people. Church is a voluntary association. Why not spend your Sundays where you feel loved and accepted for yourself?

My heart goes out to you. Although XXY is a chomosome abnormality is in 1 of 500 males, it does not always yield physical anomalies. Does the church care that there are some men/women that would have the same diagnosis if tested?

I have had several clients with XXY and one hermaphrodite. Adolescent years can be living hells as teens can be so brutal, and some grow up to be brual adults. My clients were all on SSI/Medicaid because of their disabilities which included mental health issues. I believe the mental health issues were not from any genetics but from the tortuous life.

One client was seeing a doctor that was a HC from my stake (the client told me, not the doctor). I was seeing the same doctor and he was very kind and open minded. I wish all doctors and lay clergymen could be as good at their jobs.

What many LDS do not realize is that if an individual goes to their Bishop [in confidence] and "admits" to having this condition and is unsure of their sexuality or goes to "confess" that they are Trans or Gay [but not practicing] this information is then entered onto to their Church Membership records and is never deleted.

If at a later date a new Bishop is called, he has access to the records as does his 2 counsellors and the Ward Clerk. If the individual changes Wards, the info follows the person and the "new" Bishop, his 2 counsellors and the Ward Clerk are aware of the situation and beleve me when I say that this info is considerd "juicy" and has been known to be relayed to the wives who invariably relay it to others.

I am almost 30 years old. I have been internally dealing with this transgender issue all of my life. I am physically born a female and mentally I am a male. I know I am the wrong sex. I have a PB blessing, I went on a mission, I hold a temple recomend. I am miserable. I do not fit in. I have no friendships or realtionships. I would have gotten a sex change. But like all the other times in my life I just want to fit in and I wanted to please God. BUt how can I please God when the more I learn of him I am finding I do not have a place. Why should I be content with the answers I am given that exclude someone like me. I do not protest against marriage. I know marriage is between a man and women. I am extreemly agravited because I know if I was to address my issue with the Bishop I would be dragged down. BUt I am already being dragged down and I am following the gospel. It really is a no win sisuation. And now the emphisis on marriage. People really do not know what it feels like to never have an execption offered to you because no matter what I do I would be considerd wrong. My personal experience in the temple the first time I went before my mission, knowing that this issue was not even on my mind. Was brought to light and instead of adressing it then I did what I do best and be a good little tropper. And it is not fair to be considered right up there with people who commit sever crimes. I am sick of always having to be nice and put up with comments I am sick of always being the odd one out. I really am looking for help and insight on this because I am about to go really inactive and people just sweep it under the table. SO if any one has any ideas or thoughts I would be willing to listen.

hawks2285648 Wrote:
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> Why should I be content with the answers I am given that exclude someone like me.

No one here is going to say that you should be content with those answers. Mormonism has one model for happiness (marriage between heterosexual partners.) Everyone else is going to be marginalized *at best*.

> But I am already being dragged down and I am following the gospel.

That should tell you that the Mormon gospel is not working for you. Many people here have gone inactive or resigned from the church altogether, and they are happy. The Mormon church would have you believe that you can only find happiness within the church. But it just isn't so.

> And it is not fair to be considered right up there with people who commit severe crimes.

I couldn't agree more. Coming at it from a relgious point of view -- God made you as you are. Why would he be upset with his own creation? Does this make any sense at all?

Mormonism would have you believe that it is the one true church, but it is a very tiny church in the scheme of things. Maybe two percent or less of the world's population is Mormon. Plus, it has only been around for less than 200 years. People got along just fine before Mormonism came along, and they will continue to get along just fine without it. Mormonism does not have to be a part of your life if its teachings do not support and uplift you.

If you want to have a religious home, I would urge you to do your homework and find a congregation that will support you just the way you are. I know that the Unitarian Universalists would be just fine with you, and there are no doubt other congregations as well (maybe some folks here can chime in.) But I do think for the sake of your psychological health that you should no longer give the slightest bit of creedence to anything the Mormons have to say about you.

Go ahead and take a break from the Mormon church. Make it a long break (many months.) While you are doing so, you might want to investigate LGBT resouces within your community. I think that you will come to find that you are perfectly okay without the church in your life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2011 09:27AM by summer.

{I couldn't agree more. Coming at it from a relgious point of view -- God made you as you are. Why would he be upset with his own creation? Does this make any sense at all?}

It does make sense.This is a complexed issue for me.
I agree with you but I do not either. You see why should I have to turn away from the Church when I have had many experiences that has proven to me there is a God. So turning away from the religion is not an answer either because it is like the extreem of the opposite. THis is where I have issues as a whole. I am sick of having to feel that I have to choose the right or the left. Meaning sides. How does belonging to a specific group going to safiety me as an individual? This is the delima because yes as in the church people are not accepting but the the doctrines and ordinances are true. You see I am completely happy with who I am and the things I have done. I have been extreemly respectful to both sides of the table to. But I am finding that it is me who always has to bend for others. And it does not help when the only solution is to leave. It almost best described by what my sister tried to tell me. If I want friends then I must change the way I look and dress. But in the end it is just the physical appearance.

hawks2285648 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You see why should I have to turn away from the Church when I have had many experiences that has proven to me there is a God.

You could worship God in another Christian congregation if you wish. Many people do.

> This is the dilemma because yes as in the church people are not accepting but the the doctrines and ordinances are true.

You're in a tough spot then. You believe in the truth of a church that is very rigid.

I'm going to ask you a question: If the LDS church is NOT true, would you want to know?

The problem isn't with Mormon Inc, the problem is in you choosing to believe that Mormon Inc is anything more than a group of white men collecting tithing revenue and largely influencing political opinions toward neo-conservatism.

You're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. You're making assumptions based on a pre-drawn conclusion. You pretend to know something you have no good reason to believe in (ie, that these men are inspired by a god you can't prove exists) and then you wonder why they can't get on the same page with this god regarding your sexuality...

All of this is easily reconcilable when you stick to the facts: these old, white men with conservative backgrounds and political agendas lead a religion that is based on bronze age superstitions and unfalsifiable claims about supernatural phenonemon that have never been demonstrated.

What's wrong with just being yourself? Who cares what other primates think about it?

Oh God does exist. And I do not pretend to know. I m not here agrue. You obviously do not know about tithing. Cause if you did then you would know that these men do not collect revenue. Plus if you stuck to facts and actually read the Bible, new testiment, Book of Mormon, and D&c then facts alone would prove you wrong. But you see I am not content on the revelition that really could recieve if enough people were truly searching for answers. But I did not come to this site to bash the LDS, or their leaders. I came here hoping to get others ideas or reasons why they decided to be inactive. I also am myself and most people in the church do not like that.

This is a forum that is recovery from mormonism. We either aren't mormons at all, or we only go because we have to, but don't believe it.

Sorry that you are having issues being transgendered and trying to fit in with a church that you believe to be "true." But you aren't going to get help here if you want to change Mormonism to suit you.

You might try New Order Mormons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2011 04:56PM by raptorjesus.

Hawks, Google "New Order Mormon". The NOM website will be the first hit that comes up. That website will most likely be a better fit for you.

And by all means, go inactive. There is life beyond the Mormon church.

You've made a positive claim, that "god does exist." You cite books written by men as evidence, which is a double-standard since there are numerous holy books that pre-date any mormon scripture that talk about completely different concepts of deities.

So obviously holy books cannot be evidence or you'd also worship Krishna, Amen-Ra, and the Anunaki.

I'm not here to argue with you either. I'm simply pointing out that when pressed you will not be able to provide a single shred of evidence that your god exists, but you are choosing to suffer so much because of how you fit into (or don't fit into) the religion you believe is true.

That doesn't throw up any red flags at all in your mind?

(All mormons at one time or another have told themselves that they "know" the church is true, that JS was a prophet, that god exists, etc. Testimonies do not equal evidence)

I'm sorry what you are going through, sariahleah. I hope that you are able to get some income soon. You mentioned that you are disabled, so can you go on SSI?

I don't have any answers re church but hope that things improve for you. Maybe search out other types of organizations rather than a church to get some help with work/income etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2011 05:09PM by rgg.