I had the misfortune of spending the four day weekend with TBM relatives. The big brew ha ha with them is the criticism the church is getting from the gay community. My mother in law said gays can still be members of the church but they just can't act on their urges. She then stated it's no different than heterosexuals. I quipped, well then the gays just need to get married and then they are fine in the church. I got a very nasty stare.

Oh how wonderful. The church is so loving. You can continue to be a member but you can never have sex or a loving relationship. It sounds like hell to me. What an existence.

Is there a scriptural basis to the argument that homosexuality is against God's wishes?

Personally, I'm of the opinion that people and organisations need to be very careful when they take intransigent positions.
I believe they should err on the side of caution and take a 'live and let live' attitude in areas that aren't defined as illegal.

For instance, if a child who resides with abusive Mormon parents but has the opportunity, through an official process, of being adopted by a loving Atheist gay couple, is that the wrong thing to do? The Church would ultimately say yes, that's wrong.

Is an openly gay person better off single or in a faux heterosexual marriage as opposed to being in a loving homosexual relationship? The Church would say better off single and celibate.

As with the other discriminatory practices that the Church has practiced in the past - Racist attitude towards Priesthood holding and Temple attendance for instance - the Church will shift Its stance when the position becomes socially untenable due to loss of membership numbers or financially/politically damaging (Polygamy for instance).

If all the gay members (openly or otherwise) went inactive, stopped paying tithing, stopped doing callings etc, stopped voting for Mormon candidates, you would see the Church change.
Until then the Church will continue it's discrimination, gays will continue to lead false lives or continue to suffer with the depression and stigma of being socially unacceptable in their own Church.

Based on the track record of recent history since the restoration, I don't think people should rely on the Church being proactive....

No--they would prefer they were in a faux heterosexual marriage.

"ELDER OAKS: We are sometimes asked about whether marriage is a remedy for these feelings that we have been talking about. President Hinckley, faced with the fact that apparently some had believed it to be a remedy, and perhaps that some Church leaders had even counseled marriage as the remedy for these feelings, made this statement: “Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices.” To me that means that we are not going to stand still to put at risk daughters of God who would enter into such marriages under false pretenses or under a cloud unknown to them. Persons who have this kind of challenge that they cannot control could not enter marriage in good faith.

On the other hand, persons who have cleansed themselves of any transgression and who have shown their ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background, and feel a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity — that’s a situation when marriage would be appropriate."



My prediction is they will NEVER accept gays in any fashion.

If they are single, they are "more obvious"--if they hide behind marriage, then the church can say, "see--so and so is successful at changing."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2011 10:41AM by cl2.

celibate and constantly in service to the organization and willing them to constantly monitor you to make sure you haven’t fallen off the wagon.

You would be put up on a pedestal and presented as the prefect example of how being ‘gay’ should be managed and if you’re willing to marry and support a family all the better.

See, gays can be fixed, no problem so big that it can’t be fixed by our religion.

They won’t acknowledge the living hell to which they have condemned their gay poster child. A life of silent desperation and self denial, wondering what’s so awful about loving someone of the same gender and the pleasure consensual sex with that person would bring and why “God” would bring this trial into their life? They would have to live a life of internal conflict and mentally wonder why all of this makes no sense. Because at the end of the day it’s no one else’s business what goes on in the bedroom.

It's all just lip service. You can't be Gay in the church at all.

Holding hands isn't fornicating, and many heterosexual couples do it during church with no problem. Though it makes me a little uncomfortable, girlfriends can give back rubs all during church, no problem.

Now if being Gay is so fine, if you don't fornicate, do you really think that two guys can hold hands in church? Can two girls give each other back rubs during the meeting.

Heterosexuals can date no problem, as long as they don't fornicate. Can Gays?

It's all just lip service. You can't really be gay at all. Even if you don't fornicate and remain so called chaste.

One can have the desires and urges, but that is not all there is to being gay. Being gay means living a full life as a gay person, including falling in love, having a life partner, having sex, etc., just like heterosexuals are allowed to do.

When a gay person can be married in the temple, and can reach the level of Prophet, then a gay person can be a member of the LDS church and be "no different than heterosexuals"

big, doughy asshats pulled so far down over their itty-bitty pinheads, two things would happen: first, they could get some oxygen into their little pinheads; second, they would realize what patently ludicrous (and frankly, stinky) claims those are that they keep hearing through their asshat loudspeaker.

Dissecting their stupid remarks isn't even fun enough to make it worth addressing them.

That's pretty much where I'm at. I don't discuss or argue the issue with most TBM's anymore. They follow the profit and discriminate against gays whether it's tacit or open approval for conference talks like BKP's hate speech, or actively donating time and money to political bigotry. I stopped talking and started walking......feels so much better to leave all that hate & negativity behind.

Being gay in the church seems a lot like being gay and $%#*&@(!"><. Some things just do not go together.

Edited to remove offensive political reference. I apologize for my mistake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2011 10:19AM by truthseeker.

That doesn't. Make sense to me.

Politics isn't allowed here, which is one of the more intelligent things about it, we are just discussing the evils of one rediculously ugly organization at a time.

How much do you think I can take!?!?

It sounds life self-defeating behavior to me. The church is not going to open a bar at the ward dinner.

and have absolutely zero intention of broadening your extraordinarily narrow horizons or stretching your tiny intellect with regard to the humanity of LGBT people.

Either start making an effort or learn to button your ignorant pie hole.

Again I ask. Why would they want to be mormon if they need to follow the teaching of the church? Wouldn't it be better to find a church that will accept them?

edmarc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again I ask. Why would they want to be mormon if
> they need to follow the teaching of the church?
> Wouldn't it be better to find a church that will
> accept them?

I'm thinking from this and other threads the past couple of days, that you are still a mormon, and don't like Gays. Am I pretty close?

Remember, being mormon and lying is bad. You'll go to hell and burn for eternity. So tell the truth.

Edmarc is openly mormon, and usually pretty cool too, he has good potential :-)

No! I am not edmarcs mom!!!

Why would you want to try to stay in an organization that has lied to you all your life?

Unfortunately, many gays that were raised in TSCC have never had the opportunity to learn how to be "Self-respecting LGBT".

That is why it is important for "Self-respecting LGBT" and our much appreciated straight allies to keep pressure on all institutions like the LDS.

So, I just had this discussion with my never-mo dh. He said 'wait, you can be gay and lds.' I told him that 'yes, the church will let you be gay but you can't ACT on it. no sex, no marriage, no kids.' He then said 'Then no, they really don't allow gays.' LOL...Yeah no kidding.

You can be gay and be LDS if you want to bring yourself a bunch of grief.

You can be ANYTHING and be lds if you want to bring yourself a bunch of grief

I was a totally normal perfect person in every way, still am, but mormonism was the problem, not me

No matter what all those sheep say

They lie!!!!

roflmao

People persecute the church
People persecute gays.

Are the both right or both wrong? You have to ask yourself that question.

edmarc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> roflmao
>
> People persecute the church
> People persecute gays.
>
> Are the both right or both wrong? You have to ask
> yourself that question.


I say this in the kindest way possible, and with apologies to anyone who is Gay if it offends... But edmarc, I so wish you were born Gay!

Since you have some blinders on when it comes to Gays, lets make this about another inborn trait, like race.

If you were persecuted for being black, would that be the same as being persecuted for lying, cheating, and stealing? How would the two be comparable at all?

Hint- it's not at all comparable.

Okay, let go with that line of logic.

What if you were born mormon? Can you still leave it? Absolutely.

So many have yet to learn, you can not change your sexuality of you are gay.

Even the APA suggests changing religions rather than trying to change from being gay.

Damn! Too late, I'm already straight.

Ron

If you read the story in the bible, it's regarding homosexual rape and not homosexual relations. Rape is a horrid sin period.

Speaking of gay...my tbm 28 year old neice posted on facebook something like this-"Elton John has a kid? WHAT???" It's really hard not to reply,but this psrt of the family has no idea I left the church,and therefore left all my predjudices behind. Some day I will not care.

We had this argument years ago, and I got him to admit that being gay really isn't a choice when I asked him why anyone would choose to be gay. I also asked him if he would allow an Evergreen alum to marry his daughter. He said no. I asked how do you expect a gay man to believe in Evergreen's ability to help reduce same sex attraction if you don't even believe in it?

I kept following this line of thought and got him to admit that in order for a gay man to live in the Church, he must be single and celibate. I said, in other words a gay man can never be worthy of exaltation, because you have to be married to enter into the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom.

Finally, he said "Sam, there is no place for a gay man in the LDS Church." That was the end of our discussion.