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Posted by: Aplomado ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 12:05PM

This was repeated twice on saturday during general conference. It was by Ezra T Benson originally. Tell me this isn't a cult. How do my family members not see how wrong this all is. Geez. #11 is great, I must be one of the "proud who are learned" cause I'm definitely not one of the "proud that are rich". I also like the last line. "Reject them and Suffer". Wow.

Josh


In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet," for our salvation hangs on them.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer

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Posted by: voltaire ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 12:09PM

. . . but after he dies all his "revelations" from God magically transform to being "spoken as a man, not a prophet."

How eternal, consistent, and unchanging the gospel is!

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Posted by: freedomissweet ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 12:48PM

Yes I agree voltaire.
Listen to him when he's alive but cross out everything he said when he's dead.
Why follow him now when it won't mean anything when he's left and gone to meet his maker?
I'm confused. Glad I'm out

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Posted by: Steven ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 02:35PM

and many other profits have said cannot be negated by the "current prophet" argument. That's what the TBM's fail to realize. They want to disregard the weird, ridiculous, false, and heritical statements made by past profits on the basis of stupid premise. We're talking racism, condoing murder of innocents, etc. You can't rule stuff like that out - it is what it is, and TSCC must OWN IT.

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Posted by: Ex Aedibus ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 12:10PM

I think I would suffered more had I not rejected the living profit and the first presidency.

Basically, sheeple, close your eyes and your minds. Just do what we say...OR ELSE!!

Should a Mormon study scripture? What's the point if the profit is more important than scripture?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2010 12:11PM by Ex Aedibus.

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Posted by: dr5 ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 11:43AM

Ex Aedibus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I would suffered more had I not rejected
> the living profit and the first presidency.
>
> Basically, sheeple, close your eyes and your
> minds. Just do what we say...OR ELSE!!
>
> Should a Mormon study scripture? What's the point
> if the profit is more important than scripture?


But isn't the Glory of God Intelligence? Or maybe BYU should change its motto:
The Glory of God is Blind Obedience



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 11:44AM by longgone.

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Posted by: Aplomado ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 12:20PM

So basically you should be "unlearned" and accept everything they tell you. Don't use the brain in your head, let them do the thinking for you. If you think on your own, eventually you'll see the man behind the curtain and it's all downhill from there. So glad I'm out!!!

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 12:23PM

I read the list three times to make sure it was actually from the church and not a spoof to start off our week - that is how unbelievable it is.

"...let us summarize this grand key, these "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet," for our salvation hangs on them."

Christians believe that their salvation is through Jesus Christ.

What more need be said about the Mormon focus on self and works? They insist that Jesus is the Saviour and yet demand all this obedience to mere mortals (whose words become dust, according to Mormon teachings - as evidenced by the list above - as the "prophet" passes on, yet while alive the followers had to obey him at risk of damnation if they didn't - does that make any sense?)

I know it makes no sense. I keep trying to make it make sense, even after all these years.

(Edited for typo correction and adding one last line).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2010 12:25PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: aplomado ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 12:54PM

Here is the link to the text of the talk:

http://www.lds-mormon.com/fourteen.shtml

And if you really want to torture yourself, here is the youtube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvTYMv1SsfY

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Posted by: BestBBQ ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 01:31PM

I sat through the video. What is wrong with me?!?! My summation so no one else feels compelled to watch it: Treacly and weird.

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Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 12:56PM

I read the majority of this talk in Sacrament meeting when I was a high and mighty Elders Quorum President. Some people looked a little put-off, but I believed it and thought that those were just wonderful. Heck, I was so crazed in those days that I even testified to the power and beauty of those precious words.

Someone please slap me.

Yesterday, I saw that they had trotted out this old warhorse for GC and so I dug out my copy to read to my wife. We both got a good laugh!

Yes I did believe that, and it was the way I was raised, but today when I read those words, I can't help it- my eyes roll so far back in my head I can actually see my spine.

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 01:08PM

why does he need counselors? If God tells him what is, he shouldn't need advice from mere humans.

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Posted by: badseed ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 01:18PM

I'd like to document them if I can.

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Posted by: Frontal Lobotomy ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 01:19PM

First: The prophet is only a man who says he speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more irrelevant to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet is barely more alive than a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church anywhere.

Fifth: The prophet is not expected to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time and, therefore, will usually talk out his a**.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture, but after many years and scientific discovery, it will be understood he was only speaking as a man.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we want to hear, not always the truth about what we want to know.

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning, but neither are crazy people.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. However, financial and societal is usually hit and miss.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters in opposition of societal trends.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the skeptical and the proud who are fiscally responsible.

Twelfth: The prophet will not be popular with the world or the worldly or the reasonable or the educated.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest earners in the Church corporation.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed with mindless drivel; reject them and suffer consequences of your own informed choices both good and bad.

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Posted by: Aplomado ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 01:41PM

Frontal Lobotomy,

That was great. Hilarious and so true.

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Posted by: topojoejoe ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 02:29AM

I love the 14 keys rework so much I am printing it and pasting it on my fridge. Hopefully my TBM mom and sis will see it, read it, and since they have the veil over their eyes most of the time, not even realize it is sligthly but fundamentaly changed.

Let's see if they try to make it make sense? It will be a great laugh in the least.

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Posted by: topojoejoe ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 03:11AM

I think we should make a game of this and change the 'Fundamentals' to see what happens:


First: The prophet is only a man who has never admited speaking to the Lord.

Second: The living prophet is more vile to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet put all the blame on a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church.

Fifth: The prophet should not speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time, it will save lots of embarassment later on.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture. There is enough of that nonsense on the BOM.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, and never what we want to know, and that is the truth.

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by reasoning, only feelings.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation that does not matter, temporal or spiritual.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters, and a lot of other things you probably don't know about.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are found to be either male or female.

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with these rules

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency- altogheter adding up to a milenium in age, that is why they need 15 old farts.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency-- follow the living prophet and the First Presidency today and be blessed; reject the dead prophet and the presidency or be cursed.

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Posted by: Aplomado ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 01:28PM

http://new.lds.org/general-conference/sessions?lang=eng

Kevin Duncan starts it around 6 minutes in. Not sure on Costa's but he mentioned it first.

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Posted by: ss ( )
Date: October 04, 2010 01:33PM

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism



Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt recently wrote an article about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.



The 14 characteristics are:



Powerful and Continuing Nationalism Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.



Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.



Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.



Supremacy of the Military Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.



Rampant Sexism The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.



Controlled Mass Media Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.



Obsession with National Security Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.



Religion and Government are Intertwined Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.



Corporate Power is Protected The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.



Labor Power is Suppressed Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .



Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.



Obsession with Crime and Punishment Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.



Rampant Cronyism and Corruption Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.



Fraudulent Elections Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

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Posted by: fearguiltpromise ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 01:36PM

I got a good laugh from frontal lobotomy's 14. But the Fascism 14 are just down right scary. They fit TSCC perfectly, almost as if the church tailor-made the 14 fundementals to match the fascist 14!

Do TBM's even realize how similar these all are? Of course, the answer is no.

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Posted by: top it ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 01:07PM


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Posted by: jw the inquizzinator ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 02:32PM

In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet," for our salvation hangs on them.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything. [That's right, he speaks FOR the Lard..the all-powerful Deity of the LDS is dumb [dumb da dumb dumb dumb] so we have to, you know, speak for him...and bath him...and walk him...hells bells taking care of old Deities sucks!]

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works. [For those pesky written words can get you in trouble...bottom line: listen, don't read {or google}....and yes, we realize we are using "vital" and "prophet" in close proximity]

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet. [Because he stinketh not as bad as the dead ones...and that's what they said when JS hit the ground in Carthage]

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray. [He may lead it into financial ruin, political oblivion, but never 'astray'....whatever that means]

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. [Yea, he placed out of most of it with UVU...You stinking academicians with your fancy-schmancy science and all....and on ANY subject...yea, like cellular mitchondriactignosis?]

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture. [Of course not, no one talks that way any more...he'll just stamp his foot, pull on his ear, and expel a flatus loudly to let the 'people' know that there's scripture a'comin']

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know. [And what you need to know is "nothing"...so stop all that internettin'...what you want to know is what you need to know...you know?]

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning. [or logic, or science, or intellect, or rational thought...he can even fly...but only in secret...and only on Halloween...and only in the gerat pumpkin patch]]

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. [...magically...with a rock....]

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters. [such as gay bashing, turning a blind eye to polygamy, promoting racism, cover-ups of mass murders, etc]

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich. [so your book learnin' and stinkin' money ain't gonna get you what we're gonna get ...nananananana...you'll be my servant in the afterlife and I'll ahve your wife as my number 12 wife if she's lucky]

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly. [and the prophet may not necessarily be known to the world or the worldy...we are considering him for next season's Dancing with the Elderly]

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church. [except for the secret SUPER-highest quorum of the secret...which no one can no about]

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer [that right Gentiles...SUFFER....you ain't gonna get to be your own gods, have multiple wives, makes millions of spirit babies [in the usual fashion], or get to Hie to Kolob...so ninny ninny boo boo, stick your head in curelom doo doo]

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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 08:55PM

I cannot believe all those years I was a member that I never saw this huge gorilla in the room. Just goes to show you what strange things you can convince a person to believe is normal.

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Posted by: Major Bidamon ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 12:32AM

I was reflecting on this tonight and I pictured my very wealthy TBM brother-in-law who works as an attorney for the Church. I wondered what he would say if the prophet asked him for his wife. What would he do?

In fact, this is a perfect question to ask any member who throws out the "blind obedience" argument. Ask them, "would you give up your spouse or teenage daughter if the prophet asked to marry them?".

Of course, "NO!" will be the answer. If they say this, then you can point out that they are not really true believers like Heber C. Kimball and Brigham Young.

Scary thing about my TBM ... he would probably say "of course".

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Posted by: Primus ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 01:32AM

but the prophet wouldn't ask that, or he would cease to be the prophet, because he can't lead us astray.

but if he didn't die, then what?

ummmmm.....

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Posted by: Raven ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 02:00AM

Snorted water up my nose on frontals number 3. Hilarious!!

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Posted by: Ikki ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 11:52AM

About ten years ago my visiting teachers gave me a bookmark with this "Following the prophet" list, "nicely" handmade by one of them. It was a time when I kind of still wanted to believe in the church, but this list didn't sound right at all.

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Posted by: my2cents ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 11:54AM

This talk was originally given in 1980 by Ezra Taft Benson, while Spencer W. Kimball was the prophet. Kimball was so upset with the talk that he had ETB explain it to the Q12 and later to the full body of the GA's. The whole story is found here:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/10/preaching-false-doctrine-from-general.html

For some strange reason, the talk was never retracted publicly, but only in front of the GA's, leaving the members with the false impression that ETB was speaking as a prophet, seer, and revelator.

Now we have a repeat of false doctrine in GC, and Monson apparently had no recollection of the 1980 fiasco, since all talks are reviewed and have to pass muster now. Someone is sleeping on the job.

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 12:00PM

Guess what were the comments as they were reading it? (not like you really can't guess).

Holy effing shXit!

You got to effing be kidding me!

No wonder Mormons are strange!

See I told you it was a cult!

and so on and so on.

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Posted by: my2cents ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 07:00PM

If those 14 principles are in fact doctrine, then there is no need for anyone to think, make decisions, or have free agency.

Sounds like Satan's plan from the pre-existence, doesn't it?

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Posted by: dr5 ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 07:51PM

Next time Mitt tries to tell everyone how mainstream is mormonism, this should be published. I don't remember Benson's talk, but I find the 14 principles so amazing at first I thought it was a joke. Total blind obedience to whoever is at the helm: Drink the kool-aid or else!

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Posted by: libby ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 08:13PM


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Posted by: eddie ( )
Date: October 07, 2010 06:10AM

This is a very interesting collection of malarkey. The foundational claim on all of these 14 points is an appeal to authority. Not only an appeal to authority but a dubious basically self-appointed authority at that.





First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.



Based on these first three items the god who is the same yesterday, today, and forever can...well...change today what he supposedly said yesterday and can further change in the future.





Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.



Based on what? Bernie Madoff made a similar claim.





Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.



Now that explains a lot of things. No wonder the prophet gives such bad advice and makes claims that go against the knowledge of those with decades of training and experience.





Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.



How do we know he has actually received this delegation of authority? How do we even know that a Lord exists to call a prophet and give him scripture? So many assumptions and no evidence.





Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.



Things such as requests that appear to be very self serving. For example: The lord wants me to marry your pregnant wife, you need to give me ten percent of your income, and god wants you to clean my toilets.





Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.



Great fall back position for when the prophet makes claims that do not line up with the evidence. No really there are Quakers on the moon, tea is bad for your health, and homosexuality has no genetic underpinnings. All of those scientists have not figured out the REAL truth yet.





Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.



Where is the evidence?





Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.



Sure. It couldn't possibly be because the learned actually know more than these men claiming to be prophets and can see through their lies.





Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.



So lack of popularity some how lends credence to the prophet's claims. Lack of popularity only means a lack of popularity. No non sequiturs need apply.





Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.



This reads like a filler item. There were supposed to be 14 items in the list so this piece of trivia was added.



Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer



-Argumentum ad baculum ("appeal to the stick" or "appeal to force"): where an argument is made through coercion or threats of force towards an opposing party

-Appeal to consequences: a specific type of appeal to emotion



Do it the prophets way or get pounded.

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