It has been correctly stated that Mormons are Christians in a moral sense only. And theologically, the church is NOT Christian, because they embrace & worship a finite God. The LDS "Heavenly Father" is merely an exalted man who has parents, grandparents, literal children, a body of flesh & bones, and is NOT the creator of all. For example, he did not create time & space & matter; he lives within them.

"It is the 1st principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God.....that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ did.".. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1938, by Joseph Fielding Smith)

The LDS God advanced and progressed in knowledge & wisdom until be became god. Certainly his temporal character establishes his finitude; and presupposes natural and moral laws as universals. The path to Godhood, in Mormonism, lies in the acquisition of the knowledge to understand these laws and developing the skills to apply them, and molding the required character through obedience to eternal moral precepts. In fact, the LDS God is necessarily finite since he exists within an evironment over which he lacks ultimate control. His progressive nature best describes him as "becoming" rather than "being". His anthropocentric nature is a far cry from the biblical concept of God.

In biblical Christianity there is a different God, one who has always been God, has no parents or wives, no physical body, and created everything including time and space. Surely the idea of a finite, progressive God is blasphemy to protestant Christians; and is the true reason Mormons are NOT considered part of the family of faith. The God of Christianity is absolute. Everything is contingent upon Him.

Mormon theology finds God to be the very embodiment of "eternal progression". Criticizing Orson Pratt, Brigham Young declared

"...they appear to be bounded by their capacity for acquiring knowledge, as Brother Pratt, has in theory, bounded the capacity of God. According to his theory, God can progress no further in knowledge and power; but the God that I serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children; they will increase to all eternity if they are faithful". (J of Discourses 11:286)

How did you determine this standard for utilization of the title "Christian"?

When I was TBM, I was insulted whenever evangelical friends would say that I worshiped a "different" god, and knew a "different" Jesus. I couldn't understand why they would say that except to hurt me. I get it now.

During my Philosophy of Religion class last semester, we spent a lot of time focused on classical conceptions of god's nature and the problems entailed. It occurred to me many times that the LDS conception of god (embodied, super-anthropomorphic and all) really is far afield from traditional Christian conceptions.

Mormonism takes some of the same concepts, practices and character names, tweaks them, add to them, and then tells a very different story from Christianity. Sure there are intersections and speaking broadly Christianity and Mormonism might fit into the same category at times, but Mormonism is very, very different.

Though I might not agree with the church, the mormons are still Christians. They not Jews.

I always find this topic interesting because when I was growing up in the 80's mormons did not claim to be christians. It seems to be a relatively recent desire on their part to want to claim the title of Christian. That being said, about three days ago the mormon boy down the street (about 9 years old) asked me, "Are you guys mormon or christian?" I answered, "Christian" He said, "Oh, we are mormon, thats why we have the book of mormon. Have you ever heard of the book of mormon?" All that work put in by the mormon church to be thought of as christian and their own members are sabotaging them.

edmarc Wrote:
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> Though I might not agree with the church, the
> mormons are still Christians. They not Jews.

Sure . . like cannibals are still carnivores. You ignore quantum differences and distinctions.

...that Mormons have a lot more in common with the Jewish Pharisees than they do other Christians.

Whatever Edmarc, but only a mormon would call a jew a gentile.

That would be like saying "My eyes are green because they are not brown." My eyes can be numerous colors just like mormons can be many more things than just Jewish or Christian. Because they do not worship the same god as ALL other Christians, or Jews for that matter, they are not either. Just like my eyes aren't brown or green, they are blue. Its a definition, they don't worship the same god, so they can't be called the same thing. What they are is MORMON.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2011 04:58PM by bingoe4.

It does depend on what you mean by Christian, but Mormons are definitely not traditional Christians because their concept of God is so different. I don't care what they call themselves, but it would be nice if they had full disclosure when teaching about the church. That way potential converts could make an informed decision.

They are not jews or catholics, they are LDS.

On 1 level its very simple. In a religion, FAITH is preached. Who or what is the OBJECT of that faith? Generally, in this country at least, it is GOD. In religions, sects, or denominations that take the Bible as the Word of God, there is general consensus on some basic, cardinal theological teachings about the nature of God. He is considered eternal, awesome, a spirit, the creator of all things, and infinite.

Mormonism obviously has a MUCH different concept of God, a radical departure from orthodoxy. It IS reasonable to ask or think "maybe they have the wrong God". And the real problem is the ramifications.......it changes everything, including the doctrine of Jesus Christ, the nature of man, the plan of salvation, the claims of the prophet Joseph Smith, etc....

chimes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are not jews or catholics, they are LDS.
>
> On 1 level its very simple. In a religion, FAITH
> is preached. Who or what is the OBJECT of that
> faith? Generally, in this country at least, it is
> GOD. In religions, sects, or denominations that
> take the Bible as the Word of God, there is
> general consensus on some basic, cardinal
> theological teachings about the nature of God. He
> is considered eternal, awesome, a spirit, the
> creator of all things, and infinite.
>
> Mormonism obviously has a MUCH different concept
> of God, a radical departure from orthodoxy. It IS
> reasonable to ask or think "maybe they have the
> wrong God". And the real problem is the
> ramifications.......it changes everything,
> including the doctrine of Jesus Christ, the nature
> of man, the plan of salvation, the claims of the
> prophet Joseph Smith, etc....

I agree with that which is why I said they are certainly not traditional Christians, but if your definition of Christian is someone who believes in the divinity of Christ, then they are Christians.If you define it by doctrine, then they are not.

Wrong god? The Greeks solved the problem with the god with no name. The Romans followed suit.

From the outside, the whole, "Jesus is ours, and you can't have him" thing is just silly.

It reminds me of being a kid and my Grandpa had an appoloosa stud horse. He gave one grand kid one of the spots on the horse, just to make the kid happy. Then everyone wanted one, and he'd give a spot to someone else too.

Eventually over time, some were fighting over who's spot belonged to who. Even though I was younger, I thought it was silly. What good did having a spot do, and what did it matter which spot it was?

If you think Jesus likes you, be happy. You being happy that Jesus likes you shouldn't be dependent on him not liking someone else' group.

If the mormons want him, fine with me. If some other group wants him, they can have him too.

If he exists at all, both groups might be surprised to find that they weren't his favorite.

DNA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From the outside, the whole, "Jesus is ours, and
> you can't have him" thing is just silly.
>
> It reminds me of being a kid and my Grandpa had an
> appoloosa stud horse. He gave one grand kid one of
> the spots on the horse, just to make the kid
> happy. Then everyone wanted one, and he'd give a
> spot to someone else too.
>
> Eventually over time, some were fighting over
> who's spot belonged to who. Even though I was
> younger, I thought it was silly. What good did
> having a spot do, and what did it matter which
> spot it was?
>
> If you think Jesus likes you, be happy. You being
> happy that Jesus likes you shouldn't be dependent
> on him not liking someone else' group.
>
> If the mormons want him, fine with me. If some
> other group wants him, they can have him too.
>
> If he exists at all, both groups might be
> surprised to find that they weren't his favorite

Agreed. If Jesus is really divine, he can sort it out. If not, it doesn't really matter all that much.

Expect a doctrine change by the LDS Church so they can join the World Council of Churches, hence the "I'm a Mormon" adverts.

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches.html

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/1475/lifestyle/studies/research%20&%20discoveries

Holt also said that some Mormons fear interfaith dialogue because they think they will either be tainted by false ideas or be completely offensive when discussing differences, and that it's easier to be like everyone else.

"This is not the purpose of interfaith dialogue from an LDS perspective; we don't seek ecumenism, we seek interfaith relationships and dialogue, but we do not seek ecumenism, because the purpose of it is to bring the churches together," Holt said. "That's not an LDS teaching, and we must be honest about it."

And with that, Holt said, lies the dichotomy: While Mormons do have some sort of exclusivity when it comes to correctness of belief, they're also supposed to recognize the value of other churches. In fact, Mormon revelation says that adherents of other faiths will be found in different kingdoms in the afterlife, not because of their beliefs, but because of the honorableness of their lives. Mormons believe through the Prophet Joseph Smith that people of other faiths can attain different kingdoms of glory.


"For Latter-day Saints, Jesus Christ is 'the way, the truth, and the life' (John 14: 6) and the Church is 'the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth" (D&C 1:30),' Holt said. "These truths and the validity of the Restoration are the basis of any starting point for interfaith dialogue. These can be seen to be arrogant claims to make, however, for Latter-day Saints to begin from another position would base the dialogue on dishonesty.

My understanding is that the Jews were the first Christians. Hence the old testament!

The problem is that Chimes, like Mormons, does not understand his/her own religion.

"Normal" Christianity isn't. "Normal" Christianity is only what is normative in one tradition descending from the western half of the Roman Empire. "Normal" Christianity is simply an accident of Roman history and the weird process of a political council called by a Roman emperor who needed to stop internecine intramural Christian warfare so he could remake Christianity into the bureaucratic and controlled religion that propped up an empire, for a while.

"Normal" Christianity did not happen by debate but by force and persecution of many competing Christian theologies within one single geographic region.

"Normal" Christianity is no more or less "normal" than the weird variant called Mormonism. "Normal" Christianity has no more or less to do with the original Jesus movement of centuries before than Mormonism does.

I am the alpha and omega Jesus. For I am Raptor, I have been before all of Man, yeah even the Son of Man.

I have gone extinct for your sins, by my scales and proto feathers you shall know me.

For your sins were as scarlet, but they shall be white as down.

Hi Marv; nowhere in my comments did I use the word "normal". And I did not say what my religion is. I was merely expressing a major reason the LDS church is theologically rejected by protestant Christian bible-based churches and denominations. My intention was to give a quick summary that's easy to understand regarding the Mormon God vs the God commonly known in the Bible.

The previous notwithstanding, I largely agree with your premises; you make some good points.

What I don't understand is the "Mormon God" thing. As far as I'm concerned, God is God. Period.

The "Mormon God thing" is this: The True identity of someone can be established by his Character and nature. The God of Mormonism (Heavenly Father) is accurately described in LDS doctrine & theology as an exalted man with a body of flesh. He was born at some location and advanced & progressed to become God. He has parents, grandparents, etc.

But make no bones about it; this is indeed a DIFFERENT GOD than what non-Mormons have a concept of. You are free to put your faith in the LDS God -- -- but just know that he has revealed alot about himself in the Bible; and yours appears to be the wrong one. There is nothing difficult about this, why is it confusing to you?

Carrying it on another level, some people have heathen Gods, such as money, power, fame, humanism, etc. I'm just been trying to make it clear the huge difference between the LDS concept of God, and the God commonly worshipped by bible-toting Christians. It is NOT the same God....

edmarc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What I don't understand is the "Mormon God" thing.
> As far as I'm concerned, God is God. Period.

Catholics and Protestants believe that God is one and three at the same time[Holy Trinity] and that he is a spirit and has always existed outside of space and time. That doesn't sound like the Mormon God who used to be a man, who is separate from the Son and Holy Ghost, who has a body, who is married and produces spirit children

As prophet he was not immune to such occasional failings, one reason Heavenly Father gave us first the Word of Wisdom and later revelation to President Grant to enforce it...

Now you did see my interview with Larry King on this subject a few years ago, didn't you?

Sent from Kolob on my iPod...

How many freakin' times do we have to go over this? And what does it matter, anyway?

Christianity is defined by what MEN want you to know about it, no more, no less. The definition varies somewhat, depending on what particular man or group of men are doing the defining. Mormonism is just another version with its own men offering yet another definition.

Seriously, there are so many screwed up things about Mormonism that are so much more important. Why spend any more time on the deliriously tired old "Mormons are not Chrisians" debate?

....for so many folks taking the missionary discussions -- -- or for all those non-members who are dating Mormons; if they had a brief summary of the nature of the LDS God, it likely would totally change things, they could quickly reject the teaching. And would'nt it be nice if prospects were told the real truth right up front? Instead, they are told the milk comes first, then the meat. But this doctrine is absolutely central to the faith, to know who is the object of one's faith.

The focus of this thread was not 2 merely debate whether Mormons are or are not Christians; but rather to quickly explain why protestants do NOT accept LDS people as members of the same family of faith. And to give a good overview of the differences in God's nature. This has not been over-discussed in this forum, and I believe it to be vital and relevant.

reasons many have stated above. I think your target audience is off. A few investigators come here, but far more recovering exmos are here.

Xstianity is a consensus of opinion based on myth. You want to debate your version of the myth with their “one true myth”. Debating with opinion is irrelevant.

There are plenty of real milk before meat facts to bring up - racism, the first vision, polygamy, etc., backed up with actual evidence.

Chimes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ....for so many folks taking the missionary
> discussions -- -- or for all those non-members who
> are dating Mormons; if they had a brief summary of
> the nature of the LDS God, it likely would totally
> change things, they could quickly reject the
> teaching. And would'nt it be nice if prospects
> were told the real truth right up front? Instead,
> they are told the milk comes first, then the meat.
> But this doctrine is absolutely central to the
> faith, to know who is the object of one's faith.
>
> The focus of this thread was not 2 merely debate
> whether Mormons are or are not Christians; but
> rather to quickly explain why protestants do NOT
> accept LDS people as members of the same family of
> faith. And to give a good overview of the
> differences in God's nature. This has not been
> over-discussed in this forum, and I believe it to
> be vital and relevant.

I agree. The problem is that people are baptized without full knowledge of the Mormon concept of God, not to mention plenty of other things.' If Mormons explain to them that God used to be a man, has a resurrected body, is the literal father of Jesus through sexual intercourse with Mary, that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate figures, that God is married and produced our spirits through intercourse with many polygamous wives etc and if the investigator is okay with that, I have no problem with them calling themselves Christian.The problem is that most people do nt consider those Christian beliefs and the mishies are not being honest.

I have a Mormon friend that wants so much to be seen as a Christian, and she is very annoyed with me that I maintain that she is not a Christian. She gets very defensive and then glum, and then she does not want to talk about it. When she ruminates about it she eventually comes around to alleging that I am some sort of an apostate. She is like a pin ball machine that goes TILT because she cannot seem to process the information.

In any event, it seems really odd to me that it should even matter to her if she believes she really has the truth. I guess it is more of the madness of being a Mormon.

Mormons are not Christians for the simple reason that Christians are not Mormon. It is oil and water. They do not mix, they are different at the most basic, most elementary level. We have the finite spirit child of an exalted man v. the creator of heaven and earth, who has always existed and has always been God.

The real reason is that the LDS church puts itself before god violating the first commandment. That's the same reason Jews don't follow Jesus. He violates the first commandment putting himself before god.

Skooby: Your theory does not hold if Jesus is the incarnate GOD (God in the flesh). Jesus (God the son) is still GOD.

Badger John Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Skooby: Your theory does not hold if Jesus is the
> incarnate GOD (God in the flesh). Jesus (God the
> son) is still GOD.

The point is that Jews do not believe Jesus was God. Therefore, if he claimed to be, he was guilty of blasphemy in their eyes.Whether he claimed to be God is debatable.

Now the Mormon church is saying:"No, wait! Sorry! Our mistake! We ARE Christians, after all!"

But everyone is saying: "But you told us you were not Christians. Why the change of mind?"

And the Mormons (happy little re-inventors, all!) say: "We never said we were not Christians! You must have misunderstood us!"

....growing up LDS and looking back, its true that we heard so much about the glory of "the Church". Much of the emphasis was always on "the Church". In addition, when any kind of problems came up, it was explained "the Church is perfect, but the people are imperfect".

(great summary, by the way), I have always preferred to think of Mormons as non-ecumenical Christians. This places them squarely outside of western Christian notions of deity, but still keeps them in the Christian camp, which I find appropriate.

By the same token, I see the FLDS as LDS. The Utah church does not own Mormonism. They do not get to dispossess all the various splinter groups of their history and beliefs just because they don't like sharing the mormon label.

But, as someone on the atheistic side of this issue, I really don't have a dog on this fight. Irrespective of theological variation, they all pretty much look the same to me.

elee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I see the FLDS as LDS. The
> Utah church does not own Mormonism. They do not
> get to dispossess all the various splinter groups
> of their history and beliefs just because they
> don't like sharing the mormon label.

That's how I see it, too. The FLDS has vastly more in common with LDSinc than LDSinc has in common with Christianity. I think that is an important point and worthy of discussion. It certainly isn't a tired point.

As the FLDS are an off-shoot of Mormonism, Mormonism is an off-shoot of Christianity, just as Christianity is an off-shoot of Judaism.

Although Judaism and Christianity have virtually nothing in common, the earliest "christians" were Jews. And their Jewishness affected the new religion. So to were JS and BY american protestants. Granted, they love the OT a whole bunch, but so do a lot of evanglical sects.


Outside Eternal Progression and its henotheistic god, non-trinitarianism and adding "works" in with grace, Mormonism is extremely Christian. IOW, everything else is Christian and even these particular theological items are still interpreted through a Christian lens.

I realize those items represent large differences to believers. Which is why I'm comfortable with the label non-ecumenical. But that's as far as I'm willing to go. If Mormons label themselves Christian, I accept that. Just as I accept the label of Mormon when laid claim to by the FLDS.


*shrug* It's all a continuum, with one religion bleeding over into the next. Each religion being influenced by others geographically adjacent to it, as well as those which came before it. And so it goes.